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 Transfer horse system. 
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
First job is to block being able to make every race a claimer or seller
if this does not happen the people who know how to do it will get a huge head
start n SO7 for me this is cheating everyone can use the ttfs not everyone can
create schedules outside marks editor this needs to be blocked at least make it
impossible for people to make races sellers or claimers take out that option please.

Thomas came up with a great idea for TTFs have a league play mode were ttf are not
usable and only horses bred in this mode can be uploaded to Tom

this would cater for everyone of course thats if the majority of league players
want rid of the TTFs.

For me the ttf system has been an issue but whats come to light on the manipulation
of schedules is far far more of an issue for me anyway.

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Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:06 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
I disagree with Paul that's right for once I disagree with Paul the biggest problem is the TTF file you cant get away from it Paul name me one guy who played in the league this season that used or uses a seller and claiming Schedule ? Guys have been doing a lot worse than this a ex player asked me once if it was possible to make a schedule that runs for 3 months what he wanted was the opposite to sellers and Claimers he wanted short seasons with just big races so he could fly through seasons faster and I expect he wanted to load six monsters every season.

I expect most players in the league used the ttf file in the game to get a head start what Mark should do is stop schedules being shorten anyone making a schedule should run 12 months stop Sellers and Claiming races being abled to create but let the guys still be able to alter the schedule.

The mod makers make better schedules than the standard game schedule and then stop the ttf file it will make the game better and the league at the same time plus I would like to be abled to Train other owners horses in my own game and be able to buy and breed with other owners horses in the game to refresh any breeding program.

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Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
Personally, i don't use TTF files, think i tried it a few years back, didn't feel right doing it, it felt like cheating.

I don't have an issue with people using a claiming/sellers schedule, in my opinion thats just the same as continually restarting a new game on easier mode to try and find a good horse to base your breeding around (which is what i do/did).


Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
Some very interesting points made.


Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
seeing that most of us had a say on this thread about transferring horses between games mark, it would be interesting to hear from you what you think about the going forward in SO7 when it comes to transfering horses between games & the future league play.
I must say, it has been a very interesting subject.

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Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:26 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
My major concern with getting rid of transfers are save files getting corrupted. Multiple times with SO6 I have had to start a new save due to major issues occurring crashing 95% of the time I go to the next day for example, thankfully I was near the end of the season and was able to save all my horses and bring them into a new save. I want people to seriously consider this.

I remember when I was breeding after 10 crops max from my top sire one of his colts would generally equal or surpass him, same with my mares. Since IRL stallions breed for usually more than 10 years (unless struck by misfortune) the ability to transfer didn't really change the game for me. However I am terrified of losing progress in the game when I start SO7 (after the beta is through), imagine getting over 100 seasons in, only for your game to crash and now you have to completely start from scratch. I actually don't think I'd have the heart to pick up the game ever again after that. Same with getting a new PC/having to do a system restore; right now to prevent critical loss I store all my horses in a dropbox account to prevent their loss should this occur, without transfers I can't imagine this would be possible anymore.

This being said, unless you (Mark) can come up with another way to guarantee I won't lose all progress in the game because I bought a new computer, my computer crashed, or my save became unstable (which all combined has happened at least 25 times over the course of SO6), I'm not sure if I will be purchasing SO7 if transfers are removed.

As an alternative, I suggest maybe creating some secondary program (similar to the track editor) that allows the lineage of a horse to be read all the way back to its gamebreds (no matter how many generations), if the horse displays any "unrealistic" lineage (like being more inbred than a sandwich) as defined by the league it will not be eligible for the league, nor obviously will its progeny.


Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:05 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
As far as the claiming schedules how about this? Why not post one to the mods? A nice selling/claiming schedule. I agree that it is no different from restarting the game 50,000,000 times until you get a decent horse, but I also agree that since not everyone can make a schedule that it is a bit unfair to the people who can (I have actually never used a claiming schedule).

I promise that if Mark continues to allow selling/claiming races to be allowed (although as I have never used them it won't be a huge loss to me, although I'm now imagining the time I could save in the beginning), that if I buy SO7 I will post a selling/claiming schedule to the mods section ASAP. I will prioritize it over making an updated international schedule or even playing my own game. Before the game is released I will take a poll for length of the season (if we can still change season length), I'm thinking 6 months might be better than a year although maybe people want a full year (that's what the poll will be for). The races will be run at all different distances (I will not favor classic distance runners, it will be very diverse). I would probably set it in the US (I believe the game doesn't set US horses to run any better/worse than Europeans) so that there will be plenty of both dirt and turf races giving again, more diversity. Again, I promise I will release this schedule! If you don't want cheating (which means you better not be clicking "new game" 80,000,000 times for a good horse either), then yeah get rid of it, but if the concern is an unfair advantage, then I'll make sure nobody has one (or everyone has the same one :lol:).

In fact, I never thought about how it does create an unfair advantage (its definitely easier than clicking new game 20,000,000 times)... I think I will begin designing the schedule now, maybe post it up for review. People who have created successful selling/claiming schedules in the past can hopefully weigh in on its design, although I imagine its much like creating any other stakes schedule (just with G1C? G1S? similar to G1H for handicaps?) just the horses are up for sale after each run. I'll probably end up releasing it for SO6, that way it can be tested that way beforehand and just need some editing maybe for SO7.


Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:24 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
Quote:
As an alternative, I suggest maybe creating some secondary program (similar to the track editor) that allows the lineage of a horse to be read all the way back to its gamebreds (no matter how many generations), if the horse displays any "unrealistic" lineage (like being more inbred than a sandwich) as defined by the league it will not be eligible for the league, nor obviously will its progeny.


Interesting thought. On a side note I would like it if I could see my full lineage for each horse - personally it would be interesting to me to look at my better horses and see the breeding route it has taken to be what the horse is.


Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:17 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
NPG319 wrote:
Quote:
As an alternative, I suggest maybe creating some secondary program (similar to the track editor) that allows the lineage of a horse to be read all the way back to its gamebreds (no matter how many generations), if the horse displays any "unrealistic" lineage (like being more inbred than a sandwich) as defined by the league it will not be eligible for the league, nor obviously will its progeny.


Interesting thought. On a side note I would like it if I could see my full lineage for each horse - personally it would be interesting to me to look at my better horses and see the breeding route it has taken to be what the horse is.


Well yes, that would be an added bonus to it, it wouldn't just be useful for stopping certain behaviors from happening in league, it could also be used to help league and other players better refine their breeding, especially if inbreeding was limited to realistic levels.

Now if Mark could also put in a setting that prevented inbreeding (I say setting so that if casual players wanted inbreds they could), turning the setting on would essentially warn you that if you proceeded with that breeding, the offspring, and any progeny it may have would be ineligible for league (do you wish to proceed?) this way nobody could claim accidental inbreeding, as I could see myself in a rush accidentally inbreeding just breeding my best mare and best stallion (maybe they're 3 or more generations apart and I forgot who his parents were), but I couldn't forget if Mark built in a system that gave me a warning! Most tbs do have some inbreeding, just more like 1/2 cousins at the max. So if it could just prevent breedings of father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister (and even 1/2 brother-1/2 sister) it would create some much more realistic and interesting lineages.

It would also prevent players from breeding every mare to their nigh on game-breaking amazing stallion for 10 years in a row, as it would shrink their gene pool down to concerning levels.


Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
For most people the transfer system is a nice way of adding a bit of interest to their games by moving horses around (flat to jumps for example). I'ts not ideal for the league. I need to revisit this because ultimately the decision to keep, get rid or change this feature is related to other ongoing work. Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:
This being said, unless you (Mark) can come up with another way to guarantee I won't lose all progress in the game because I bought a new computer, my computer crashed, or my save became unstable (which all combined has happened at least 25 times over the course of SO6), I'm not sure if I will be purchasing SO7 if transfers are removed.


I'm pretty sure that the way so6 (and previous releases) handle game objects and is constantly moving memory around is the root cause of crashes. This is because old code (dating back to SO1) has gradually been hacked and built on to add new features over the years. With SO7 this code is gone so hopefully stability will be much better.

Quote:
As an alternative, I suggest maybe creating some secondary program (similar to the track editor) that allows the lineage of a horse to be read all the way back to its gamebreds (no matter how many generations), if the horse displays any "unrealistic" lineage (like being more inbred than a sandwich) as defined by the league it will not be eligible for the league, nor obviously will its progeny.


This is a possibility.

Quote:
Interesting thought. On a side note I would like it if I could see my full lineage for each horse - personally it would be interesting to me to look at my better horses and see the breeding route it has taken to be what the horse is.


In the actual game it will be possible to trace lineages back for every game horse right back to day 1 (up to a maximum of 200 game years which I have set as the minimum supported game length for the standard schedules/settings). Right now lineages are just displayed on one screen for a given horse. But by selecting any horse in the lineage you can then view that horses lineage so if you wanted you could go back to day 1.

SO6 and previous versions fudged lineages by tagging copies of ancestors horse classes into a list owned by the offspring horse class and this was exported enabling you to view lineages. This does not happen with SO7 as lineages are constructed from references to horse objects (as now details on every horse in the game dating back to day1 or retained by the game rather than being deleted as things progress) so currently horses would be exported without lineages but I can look into this if required.


Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:15 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
Thanks Mark


Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:48 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
Mark wrote:
For most people the transfer system is a nice way of adding a bit of interest to their games by moving horses around (flat to jumps for example). I'ts not ideal for the league. I need to revisit this because ultimately the decision to keep, get rid or change this feature is related to other ongoing work. Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:
This being said, unless you (Mark) can come up with another way to guarantee I won't lose all progress in the game because I bought a new computer, my computer crashed, or my save became unstable (which all combined has happened at least 25 times over the course of SO6), I'm not sure if I will be purchasing SO7 if transfers are removed.


I'm pretty sure that the way so6 (and previous releases) handle game objects and is constantly moving memory around is the root cause of crashes. This is because old code (dating back to SO1) has gradually been hacked and built on to add new features over the years. With SO7 this code is gone so hopefully stability will be much better.

Quote:
As an alternative, I suggest maybe creating some secondary program (similar to the track editor) that allows the lineage of a horse to be read all the way back to its gamebreds (no matter how many generations), if the horse displays any "unrealistic" lineage (like being more inbred than a sandwich) as defined by the league it will not be eligible for the league, nor obviously will its progeny.


This is a possibility.

Quote:
Interesting thought. On a side note I would like it if I could see my full lineage for each horse - personally it would be interesting to me to look at my better horses and see the breeding route it has taken to be what the horse is.


In the actual game it will be possible to trace lineages back for every game horse right back to day 1 (up to a maximum of 200 game years which I have set as the minimum supported game length for the standard schedules/settings). Right now lineages are just displayed on one screen for a given horse. But by selecting any horse in the lineage you can then view that horses lineage so if you wanted you could go back to day 1.

SO6 and previous versions fudged lineages by tagging copies of ancestors horse classes into a list owned by the offspring horse class and this was exported enabling you to view lineages. This does not happen with SO7 as lineages are constructed from references to horse objects (as now details on every horse in the game dating back to day1 or retained by the game rather than being deleted as things progress) so currently horses would be exported without lineages but I can look into this if required.


Sounds like a bunch of awesome improvements. I'd still like to see the outside program for lineage, something simpler for league players to be able to view the whole lineage at once (it'll be sprawling in some horses and certainly need the ability to zoom and scroll). However, you could build the most stable game in the world Mark and people would still have computer trouble. My computer has issues with crashing, through no fault of your game, but due to age, getting viruses, etc. and it may need to be replaced during SO7's lifespan. I'd be devastated to lose all my progress (horses) because of a lack of any sort of transfer system. I feel having the lineage viewing system that would prevent people from entering unrealistic inbreds into league (if league decided to go through with the rule), which would allow the transfer system to remain.

Either that or maybe some workaround could be devised so that the transfer horse could age despite being in the transfer pool? Or each horse could only be transferred a maximum number of times (2 or 3 maybe), some sort of tag could be applied to it with each transfer (if that's possible)? That way, while we wouldn't be able to keep a horse forever, we wouldn't be at huge risk of losing all of our hard work; because even if you make a perfect game that never crashes once, I know I (and other people here too) certainly don't have a perfect computer. Also I make schedules, which i assume SO7 will continue to allow, right now I need to start a new save for a new schedule, would I have to lose all my progress each time I made a new schedule? Or will I no longer have to start a new game when I mod a schedule (not using the schedule editor, but actually modding the game files).


Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:12 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
The transfer system is not an issue, it works fine as is and it shouldnt even be considered for removal. I would even remove the season transfer limit but many wont agree with that.

No matter what you do, the people who win in the league will be the people who put the most work in, removing the transfer system would only be tying one hand behind the back of serious league breeders. They would still put more time into single saves and end up with the best horses. In any case, the league shouldnt be lowering the standard of horses to help casual players, with good handicapping half decent horses will get the odd win and thats the way it should be. You shouldnt be able to play for a couple of hours then win the Derby online.

The system is useful for non league players who want to move their horses to a different schedule and its also a nice backup for if a save gets corrupted.

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Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
DocHay wrote:
The transfer system is not an issue, it works fine as is and it shouldnt even be considered for removal. I would even remove the season transfer limit but many wont agree with that.

No matter what you do, the people who win in the league will be the people who put the most work in, removing the transfer system would only be tying one hand behind the back of serious league breeders. They would still put more time into single saves and end up with the best horses. In any case, the league shouldnt be lowering the standard of horses to help casual players, with good handicapping half decent horses will get the odd win and thats the way it should be. You shouldnt be able to play for a couple of hours then win the Derby online.

The system is useful for non league players who want to move their horses to a different schedule and its also a nice backup for if a save gets corrupted.


I agree that the people who put in the hours now will also probably be at the top for SO7's league too, as unless they suddenly lose interest in the game, they'll still be the ones putting in the most hours. Nobody is trying to change that, those who put in the hours should most certainly reap rewards for it. However, I think the complaint is that right now those hours are quite tedious, and if one member of league is willing to engage in such tedious behavior, all members feel compelled to do so as well in order to keep up (or that one league member would just dominate). I think the idea of removing ttf files was to get more realistic breeding in place, and thus remove some of the tediousness from the game, bring that element of fun, surprise, and wonderment back; which in and of itself is not a bad thing. I do agree though that removing ttf files is not the way to do it.

A way to back up our horses is required, Mark feels confident he's going to be making a more stable game, and I can't believe he'd let us down; but that doesn't mean I (and probably others here as well) have the most stable of computers. My computer crashes sometimes and needs to be restored to factory settings, I may need to replace it at some point during SO7s time, I know issues like this have come up during SO6. As it is I have been intensely grateful for the ability to backup my horses to dropbox on a regular basis so that if this happens, I do not lose everything. Sure, I also played with ttf files in the tedious way others did, and it was great fun for a while... until it wasn't, so I understand how it does get boring to breed like that. However, I would have been heartbroken if during one of those system restores I had to do, if I had lost literally all of my game progress. For SO7 I would want to keep ttf files not for obsessive attempts to breed perfection, but rather to avoid losing hours upon hours of careful breeding. And even if it is a matter of being able to back-up the actual save file, again what if it does become corrupted (it can happen in even the most stable of games)? What if I want to use a different schedule (I know I personally like updating my stakes schedule yearly to fit the real world)? I like the ability to transfer horses between saves even if I am not intending to breed them in ways that do not fit within the confines of reality.

Mark has developed a lineage system that lets us look back over 200 seasons (I'm hoping he'll work to develop a secondary program, similar to racetrack editor, that'll let people open a horse file and view back to day 1 on any horse), this way league could check for inbreeding shenanigans if they thought such was adding to the tedium of league. But I can't imagine league players really thinking about this, realizing save files do get corrupted sometimes, realizing they'd literally have to start from square one and thinking "yeah that's a great idea, I'd love to lose all progress I've made every 6 months, rendering the game/league pointless!".


Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:15 am
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Post Re: Transfer horse system.
The problem with the ttf is two-fold. And the solution has to address both. Also, the single-player non-league original idea for the ttf wasn't horrid.

Here are the two problems.
1 - infinite back-up and reuse of horses, aka "cold storage"
2 - game difficulty is all front-loaded

They are related, in both single-player and league. I'll do them one at a time.

The infinite storage of the really good horses am industrious player has saved up for league is obvious. It is also bad for single player as it trivializes the game once you have a lot of well-bred horses available at any time, in any game. Charging money to import them, and limiting it to N per schedule year is not a handicap with betting and schedule cheats. Even just betting and fast forward and it doesn't matter. This is why I feel it is so bad in single player as well. It makes replay of the difficult parts not worthwhile.

The difficulty of the game is the other problem. The game is only difficult at the start. very quickly you can do well in grade races, and by your second crop you should win many in a single player game. Many buying opportunities is a fast track, and breeding is a big red "I WIN" button. The ttf magnifies this existing problem. I'm not that good compared to league players, so if I feel this, it must be very easy for you guys.

The combination means the best way to get really good horses is not to play the game as an "owner-trainer" but to as I put it in the other thread breed like a gambler. Pull the lever as often as possible with the dice as loaded as possible. As it stands now you don't need really good horses to do well in non-league. But even in single player the number of foals to sort per year gets eye-glazing. And the ttf is needed to both hold bloodstock, if serious, and to open space to sort foals. In game play terms, pure unfun grind becomes the optimal way to advance.

The ttf isn't the main problem, but the magnifying glass for it. I like it for sending jump prospects from a flat game to my lone restarted combo one. But I think the game would be healthier without it.

The game needs to be easier to get started in, but much harder to master. Right now there is this huge hump to buy all the objects and get your second crop of foals out (first are usually junk breedings for cash). After that you are rarely challenged unless you self-handicap, but that is boring. The ttf means you can shorten that by another season, knowing you'll pump out quality in season two. And somehow, you then need to get the best horses by playing the whole game (racing and training) not just the breeding slots. There are other issues there to fudge things there too.


Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:40 pm
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