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 Dubai World Cup Switch 

Dubai Change
Poll ended at Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:12 am
Yes 91%  91%  [ 10 ]
No 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 11

 Dubai World Cup Switch 
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
The increase is to stop small fields not in Group Races but Handicaps no one needs 25 horses it is a option Paul, John you don't have to have 25 group horses :) but if you decide to then you will need to find 25 races :lol: the plan is to open certain races to two entries Wokingham and Lincoln and if we to have lower Handicaps then we need more horses in the league from the mid to low end trainer.


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Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:17 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
I am out of my depth here because there are so many facets of the horse racing world I am not too familiar with yet, so bear with me.

I think it is a good idea to have Dubai at the first week and then maybe have some more competitive maidens for the rest of us.

And I see the thinking you veterans do behind everything. The league is a double edge sword. We want it to be competitive and interesting for all parties. Both the elite and the newbies, and the ones in between.

But some trainers have come a long way, and they will dominate, and the worry in this forum is that the new trainers lose interest. I understand that kind of thinking, but I think a lot of the new ones know that it will be hard and to expect what the challenge will be. I read a lot about the league before i dipped in, and I think other trainers will do the same.
But since there are so few trainers, and so few races, it can not replicate the real world. The real world is about 365 days of racing, with most races for ordinary horses. But because we are racing fans we want the big races in the league. Those are the races we want to see, participate in and win. So a week with a third of it group races is unrealistic, but in the league that is how it is, because we love those races.

I really admire and welcome the debate to evolve and make the league better, that means there are lot of us that care for the league. The discussion is important.

Since it is a computer game, and our horses are always prime, and ready to race, the league doesn't count in form and over racing like the real world. So it difficult for my horse to improve or snatch a win because it is better prepared than the others.
And it is no point letting the horses run several seasons, because since we cant train them they will not improve or decrease year for year. Ideally I should have a decent two year old, who improved into its third year, and maybe peaked at four. That wouldn't work in the league. So we need to ditch that thinking and connection to the real world. We play a computer game with computer game rules and try to mirror that with the horse racing world we love.

it is not easy, but my experience is that that the league is fair and well thought out. I love our little imaginary world.

And here is my point in all my ramblings. I think it should be possible for a trainer to run multiple horses (two or three) in group 1 races if they have the right rating. (110 + maybe? here I am out of my depth) That will free up spaces for other horse in lower grade races.

That should apply for every race except the classics. In the classics everyone should be allowed an entry, because that's what is fun with the league. The chance to run your horse in a big race. None of us would ever be able to own a horse in real life to run in a big race, so the league takes care of that.

My experience from last year was that i didn't bother entering horses in group races, because they weren't good enough. And that is fine, I could enter them in races that I could compete. But still there were not enough races in a week for me to find decent races for all my horses.

So, maybe allow fewer horses in the stables (depends on how many trainers that joins) and let the best trainers enter more horses in the big races.

I would also love a statistic page that listed previous winners of races, and trainers with most wins. Probably lot of work, but will add to our great world of league racing.

I really like that Martin will provide a guide, that will be really great and helpful, and I think it says a lot that Paul always share his findings with the rest of us. We are an open community and I love that. And that must be the mantra for the league, we help each other and have fun with what we do.

Sorry about the incoherent rambling, and I want to point out this is just some points in a debate, lots of these thoughts may have been thought of before and discarded.

Keep on breeding everyone, looking forward to november.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:28 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
simpleminds wrote:
The increase is to stop small fields not in Group Races but Handicaps no one needs 25 horses it is a option Paul, John you don't have to have 25 group horses :) but if you decide to then you will need to find 25 races :lol: the plan is to open certain races to two entries Wokingham and Lincoln and if we to have lower Handicaps then we need more horses in the league from the mid to low end trainer.


Gray


Gray I've retired from the flat due to being busy with life and I couldn't top the end of last season with my old warriors going out on top . :D I think the only way the 25 rule flat race works is if u bring 5 back otherwise the top trainers can not only dominate the 3yo's but they will be able to dominate the older division as well. With 20 horses u have to pick what u going for , to be the best at the 3yo division or have a mix but with 25 u can do both and that's not good in my eyes. The league will be to top heavy.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Going off topic but would advise everyone to breed to gamebreds in USA game
for some reason USA game has almost full potential bar 2YO which become full at 3
im sure someone mentioned they saw full bar 2yo in american game i did not
really believe it but look


Image



Paul I said it a few months ago about getting a full 2yo bar in the US.

Paul this my Wannabe Grand( probably my best ever 2yo) , she's a UK horse with no US breeding and u can almost get it full without it.
Image

Oh well the stupid site doesn't work :roll: :roll:


Last edited by ghostzapper74 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:45 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Taunton wrote:
I am out of my depth here because there are so many facets of the horse racing world I am not too familiar with yet, so bear with me.

I think it is a good idea to have Dubai at the first week and then maybe have some more competitive maidens for the rest of us.

And I see the thinking you veterans do behind everything. The league is a double edge sword. We want it to be competitive and interesting for all parties. Both the elite and the newbies, and the ones in between.

But some trainers have come a long way, and they will dominate, and the worry in this forum is that the new trainers lose interest. I understand that kind of thinking, but I think a lot of the new ones know that it will be hard and to expect what the challenge will be. I read a lot about the league before i dipped in, and I think other trainers will do the same.
But since there are so few trainers, and so few races, it can not replicate the real world. The real world is about 365 days of racing, with most races for ordinary horses. But because we are racing fans we want the big races in the league. Those are the races we want to see, participate in and win. So a week with a third of it group races is unrealistic, but in the league that is how it is, because we love those races.

I really admire and welcome the debate to evolve and make the league better, that means there are lot of us that care for the league. The discussion is important.

Since it is a computer game, and our horses are always prime, and ready to race, the league doesn't count in form and over racing like the real world. So it difficult for my horse to improve or snatch a win because it is better prepared than the others.
And it is no point letting the horses run several seasons, because since we cant train them they will not improve or decrease year for year. Ideally I should have a decent two year old, who improved into its third year, and maybe peaked at four. That wouldn't work in the league. So we need to ditch that thinking and connection to the real world. We play a computer game with computer game rules and try to mirror that with the horse racing world we love.

it is not easy, but my experience is that that the league is fair and well thought out. I love our little imaginary world.

And here is my point in all my ramblings. I think it should be possible for a trainer to run multiple horses (two or three) in group 1 races if they have the right rating. (110 + maybe? here I am out of my depth) That will free up spaces for other horse in lower grade races.

That should apply for every race except the classics. In the classics everyone should be allowed an entry, because that's what is fun with the league. The chance to run your horse in a big race. None of us would ever be able to own a horse in real life to run in a big race, so the league takes care of that.

My experience from last year was that i didn't bother entering horses in group races, because they weren't good enough. And that is fine, I could enter them in races that I could compete. But still there were not enough races in a week for me to find decent races for all my horses.

So, maybe allow fewer horses in the stables (depends on how many trainers that joins) and let the best trainers enter more horses in the big races.

I would also love a statistic page that listed previous winners of races, and trainers with most wins. Probably lot of work, but will add to our great world of league racing.

I really like that Martin will provide a guide, that will be really great and helpful, and I think it says a lot that Paul always share his findings with the rest of us. We are an open community and I love that. And that must be the mantra for the league, we help each other and have fun with what we do.

Sorry about the incoherent rambling, and I want to point out this is just some points in a debate, lots of these thoughts may have been thought of before and discarded.

Keep on breeding everyone, looking forward to november.


Its good to see a newbie getting fully involved , we need more people like u to keep the best league in the world going. :D Bugger the premier league :lol: :lol:


Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:46 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Don't want to speak to far out of line but Martin has shown me stats from last season and it is true that as far as Group races are concerned, we are top heavy.
Myself and Martin have chatted with Gray about lower rated races - I have looked at last years schedule and the first race that is rated under 85 or 80 isn't til week 9.
Our proposal is to include 3 races each week starting from week 2 that is either 0-60, 0-65 and 0-70.
I have also put my hand up to directly contact and communicate with all new trainers....especially between weeks one and two and guide them towards these lower rated Hcps.
The future of this league is to retain trainers and we need to aim at retaining a higher percentage.
More trainers = more volunteers.

You all know I am a solid Aussie. Damn straight! And you all know I have not been happy with how the Australian races have been treated.
Instead of guts aching I have chatted to Gray about this and to finding a solution. So next season we will trial the Autumn and Spring racing carnivals from Australia.
The Spring Carnival at this stage will be the last week of the season as usual. We are still discussing how to implement an invite only or qualification for the G1 $10million Everest 6f sprint plus running two other G1 sprints in the last week to open up a bigger pool of trainers to bag a G1 and some decent Aussie coin.

A similar thought pattern will apply to the Autumn Carnival but it will be spread over five or six weeks. At this stage there will be a group of big stakes Aussie G1s in week 2 with other G1s spread over the following weeks to stretch the G1 pool over certain distances and age groups to 'hopefully' allow the second and third tier of trainers a chance to win a G1 and big Aussie coin again. Every Aussie race bar one is worth a minimum of $1million. What I hope this will do is create a dilemma for the top line trainers - "Do I chase the Aussie coin or do I chase the British prestige?" In turn a lower rated trainer with an honest horse sits back and watches acceptances looking for the weaker G1 and pounces!
I will stress again - this concept will be a trail next season - it either sinks or swim.

You may say or think "It will cheapen G1s" but I will remind you all that even in the real world of thorough bred racing - not all G1 races are equal!

This idea will not open G1s to new trainers or trainers like myself but I believe it potentially opens up the opportunity for mid ranked trainers and trainers just under top flight the chance to win some G1 races.

Taunton touches on some of my thinking - bringing back horses to even up the league will not work. It is a trainers prerogative if he or she wishes to do so but in general it only handicaps lower rated trainers. Bringing game bred horses into the league for each trainer will not work - PJ has already stated how this can be manipulated - once again it should be up to a trainer if they wish to run game bred horses. It is also unrealistic that all trainers, no matter their stable rating can win a G1 - it's brutal but I believe it to be true BUT I think my idea can open up G1s to more trainers bagging one. In real life a bush trainer can buy a cast off horse and polish it up - Takeover Target is a perfect example but our game has limitations that doesn't allow this.
Taunton was smart last season! Like myself we avoided Group races and gave our stables every chance of picking up a winner in the lower grades - this is also where we need to steer new trainers - like horses, we can lead them to water...some will drink, some not BUT hopefully instead of most losing hope and quitting by week five - the ones that drink find a winner in a 0-60 and a reason to stick around and get their heads around the league.

Doug.


Last edited by NPG319 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:52 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Quote:
Going off topic but would advise everyone to breed to gamebreds in USA game
for some reason USA game has almost full potential bar 2YO which become full at 3
im sure someone mentioned they saw full bar 2yo in american game i did not
really believe it but look


Seems my retirement from breeding maybe short lived. :)


Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:27 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Über low grade handicaps early sounds sensible to me. And I also think 25 horses will just allow the top tier to dominate more, I have already considered what the 5 extra would do and they all give me extra races I presently forgo.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:30 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
The main worry I have with ultra low 0-60, 0-70 hcaps so early in the season is how many horses are going to be eligible. Remember that maiden winners will probaly get a rating of 110 so any horse that will be able to run in these hcaps in week 2 will have to finish a hell of a long way behind.

What about restricting a handful of the week 1 and 2 maidens to new trainers and those who finished outside the top 10 of the trainers championship last season. With non of the top trainers having runners in these particular races horses could be given lower handicap marks to start the season proper with.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:34 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Going off topic but would advise everyone to breed to gamebreds in USA game
for some reason USA game has almost full potential bar 2YO which become full at 3
im sure someone mentioned they saw full bar 2yo in american game i did not
really believe it but look


Image


Excuse my bluntness but what the F are you talking about??? Me. Mr. USA. Captain America. Don't you think I, who has made it known for years that I am almost exclusively an US Schedule player and who would give away any tips to help other players at the drop of a hat, would have already told all about this great advantage???

I've been playing the US Schedule for years. Seen thousands of horses. Bred thousands of horses. Tossed thousands of horses. I HAVE NEVER ONCE SEEN A FULL OR ALMOST FULL POTENTIAL 2YO.

I made a big deal in a general discussion thread just months ago about finally breeding some +90 potential 2yo's for the first time.Ever. This was after I found a beast Dubai sprinter in the breeding shed.

Stick with the UK game. You guys get the pick of all the best Cruising burst horses. It's been quite apparent to me for a long time now the UK game players are at an advantage because of....Cruising Burst.

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Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:25 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Kevcon wrote:
The main worry I have with ultra low 0-60, 0-70 hcaps so early in the season is how many horses are going to be eligible. Remember that maiden winners will probaly get a rating of 110 so any horse that will be able to run in these hcaps in week 2 will have to finish a hell of a long way behind.

What about restricting a handful of the week 1 and 2 maidens to new trainers and those who finished outside the top 10 of the trainers championship last season. With non of the top trainers having runners in these particular races horses could be given lower handicap marks to start the season proper with.


Restricted Maidens is a good thought - but just wondering how the handicapping would work?

Depending on Hcp ratings after week one - there is no reason why we couldn't lift the low rated races 10 points and make them 0-70 to 0-80 if there isn't many low rated horses to start with.
Maybe we can ask Sirius to take note of how many horses he rates 70 and under during his handicapping on week one and then Gray can rate those three races accordingly.

Doug


Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:40 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
SiriusChill wrote:
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Going off topic but would advise everyone to breed to gamebreds in USA game
for some reason USA game has almost full potential bar 2YO which become full at 3
im sure someone mentioned they saw full bar 2yo in american game i did not
really believe it but look


Image


Excuse my bluntness but what the F are you talking about??? Me. Mr. USA. Captain America. Don't you think I, who has made it known for years that I am almost exclusively an US Schedule player and who would give away any tips to help other players at the drop of a hat, would have already told all about this great advantage???

I've been playing the US Schedule for years. Seen thousands of horses. Bred thousands of horses. Tossed thousands of horses. I HAVE NEVER ONCE SEEN A FULL OR ALMOST FULL POTENTIAL 2YO.

I made a big deal in a general discussion thread just months ago about finally breeding some +90 potential 2yo's for the first time.Ever. This was after I found a beast Dubai sprinter in the breeding shed.

Stick with the UK game. You guys get the pick of all the best Cruising burst horses. It's been quite apparent to me for a long time now the UK game players are at an advantage because of....Cruising Burst.


1) your outburst is a tad out of order Sirius 2 So are you calling me a liar im actually playing for fun again and trying the
international schedules and breeding to gamebreds as i dont believe just breeding with what i have will make any improvement
as i have taken the horses as far as i can go so playing for fun to see if it throws up any improvement and i saw
what an american gamebred produced almost 95% potential 2YO's when you consider it was covering something that was a had 90%
at 2 which all mine used to have it means i can only come up with one conclusion that this was a full bar 2yo gamebred

this is a 3YO who had 97% potential at 2

Image

I have only just found this information out and shared it straight away i dont see it really as an advantage as they
could stink n the CK have not trialed anything as i say have 2 squads ready for next season and just messing
about actually enjoying playing the game for fun.

Not sure why you decided to go ballistic at me over it Anything i have EVER found in the game I have shared straight away

Also John thankfully has backed what i have stated integrity is a hugely important to me personally questioning
it without foundation is a bit of an insult TBH

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Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:34 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
I rest my case for the defense :lol:



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Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:57 am
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
Kevcon wrote:
What about restricting a handful of the week 1 and 2 maidens to new trainers and those who finished outside the top 10 of the trainers championship last season. With non of the top trainers having runners in these particular races horses could be given lower handicap marks to start the season proper with.


This is a good idea and could be structured quite easily by either making them non handicap maidens or open maiden handicaps. At first open only to trainers with less than an agreed number of winners in the current and previous season, say 10. Then after the window with less than an agreed number for the current season. The format would work kind of like apprentices losing their claim.

Taking to Gray the other night he explained that race conditions can be altered in the week of the race so if they weren't working they could be tweaked.

Also with being allowed to run in G1s straight off the maiden winners should get less than 110 as they won't be quite as strong as the top horses will hopefully be in the group races. Besides which I have no objection to the top trainers sneaking in for one handicap win after a maiden. The likes of Stoute and Gosden do it all the time. The harsh handicapping of the maidens (not criticising Sirius I understand why it is done at the moment) actually hurts the lesser trainer more than the top ones as those horses are not aimed at handicaps more than once or twice, if at all, usually. A mediocre horse having a good run in one of those maidens is done for the season if it consistently runs in the top 10 of the listed and G3 races it can get into.

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Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Dubai World Cup Switch
I can tweaked say a 0-70 Handicap in week 2 during the week of the race if Tom is working ok but if we have less than 20 runner Maidens be it just a maiden or Maiden Handicap this can be harder for the Handicapper to handicap Correctly if you exclude top Trainers I would expect the big guns to aim for Dubai hat is 8 races they still have at the Moment 12 Maidens to find a race so I don't think restricting the top trainers is a good idea Myself.

What it comes down to is the amount of Trainers starting and staying in the league if we leave it at 20 and I have added more Races low handicap races and the Autumn Carnival in the early weeks and we are low on Numbers in trainers then we are going to struggle to get good fields we will use this Season has a stand alone experiment with race Structures which I have planned After Ascot for Group and Listed races all trainers don't need 25 horses but the option can be at the moment not every trainer uses the 20 allowed we need trainers to use the slots available we once I believe had 30 slots available on the Flat.

Gray

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