I dont think you can have a split league straight away how do you police who goes where
I know with the DCC i split after week 5 you know where you are by then.

Maybe after week 4 have races for each tier then when the levels have been sorted.

OH GOD the gamebred league thingy is back I know the only reason i play the game is
the challenge of the league id give up the game after 6 months if it was not for the league

I admit that a gamebred league would be appealing in terms of time saving and fit to what
casual player needs but i can just see that wearing off after very quickly.the thought of going to
every single auction in a hope you hit lucky it sounds 10 times more teediiess than trialing basically the
league will come down to PURE LUCK and lets be honest where is the fun in that. and if that really is the
only way forward we need to stop people from having claiming/selling schedules.

As i said last week when it kicked off again i stepped away from it because TBH I really dont think
at this time there is an answer and i feel your pain Stu you are not getting much out of it.

Rookie races would also have tiny fields unless these races attract more rookies we only had 4
this season and 3 have quit.

Only thing i can suggest is a split league after week 4

maybe 3 levels/leagues and have races that only horses from each level can enter I'm not
even sure if that would work

This is about the 3rd time in 10 years that a gamebred league has been mentioned first time
it was to stop the cheating that was going on before i entered the league never happend though
then I think when i was president a gamebred only league was suggested
by Steve (Not Jalupan) but that did not go through but there were a few gamebred races bought in but they died off.

With a gamebred league it will be completely down to pot luck you might as well put all Josh John Jim Jango Steve & thuersparks
horses in a lottery draw and you get 20 in a draw and you get to race them it would evaluate to the same thing that would be pot luck

The claiming and selling schedule changes for me will cause as much noise in a gamebred league as the tff files do in this one. I am not convinced i’d take part and based on my race running, not many others have a high percentage of gamebreds presently, so I am also not sure who would. Even the casual player breeds at home.

Well nice to band it about and hear of suggestions and alike, your prob right with the Gamebreds, I was about in 4 when we had several races per week and they were always under subscribed, although appealed to some. Tho we also did run two leagues a US and UK so this should not be ruled out of the question.

Not sure a division 2 Derby really would cheapen either, we would all know what the real one was, a suggestion to allow the lesser stable who does not have the time to at least feel that they have achieved something, too much is put down to obtaining one win in a 0-70 and you should be happy, but it is what it is!

Its true the S06 league rightly or wrongly has too much of a divide between the top 25% of trainers and the rest and it appears if you do not have the time then really you have to accept that you will not win anything of note, however hard we try to adapt.

It will always remain entertaining, it just depends what you want to get out of it, if you have the time then you can be successful if you don't, it can feel a little like "hard cheese" sometimes.

We all have to agree that we have evolved steadily with ideas and schedules which is a plus point and the top trainers have been more than willing to adapt to the lower end needs, this does not go un-noticed and although nothing will ever be right, I guess I have to repeat, it is what it is!

What about adding more lower H'caps to the schedule? 0-90 an below. This is obviously based at future as I know at present the schedule for TOM is at full capacity in terms of races? The way to balance it is the Handicapping if you ask me. The top top trainers just need to be Handicapped more harshly than the bottom guys, this probably requires a lot more work for the H'capper, however I'm happy to offer my services there and help out. My job is a sports trader so odds compiling an trading is what I do. I'm more than happy to help out with this as it just requires a lot more work going into this. I am under no circumstances having a go at the current handicapping, doing a fantastic job.

Basically, even at the minute, I'm having a very tough time getting my horses under 90, next to impossible under 80. I think if we started handicapping trainers slightly more harshly who were at the top of the tree then they would then not be anywhere near these Handicapps, therefore offering a lot more competition throughout the season for the lower trainers. It offers them somewhere to go, even up the prize money on them so in the standings it helps a bit. The possibility of a few group races/Listed with a max rating of 80-90 would also help. For me splitting the league is definitely not the answer, slightly expanding it and adding more restricted races with max ratings is the way, adding more prize money to them too. At the end of the season, then maybe have a week or 2 where there's a championship style finale for the top horses, i.e all group 1s, already in with a Breeders Cup. Also add another one, with high prize money, but for horses rated 95 an below or similar.

I think none of the top 10 trainers currently should have many horses around this mark. I'm far from a top trainer an I've struggled to get anything below. If the Handicappers take into account the trainer, slightly as well as the form I think it will open up a lot more races to the lower ranks.

I know some people might think this is harsh on some trainers, but this isn't like in real life where a trainer can have all sorts of caliber of horses, from different types of owners. Basically it's based on how far along their own breeding program is. All my horses have different ability's yes, but they aren't a million miles apart, and the higher up the trainer, the more the gap will tighten, i.e their breeding is further along, thus producing similar types.

This way also means that 0-100 or 0-110 will still be very open to the bottom guys, an the top. If a handicapper looks at a horse an thinks around the 90 mark look at the trainer, if it's a top trainer, make it 91/92, if its a lower trainer, 89, this means the 0-90s will be opened up a lot more to the lower guys. Same with 0-80 although probably less applicable. Same with 100, if it's close, up the top trainers slightly.

For me the answer is in the handicapping system (it shouldn't be based on real life form Handicapping, plus the addition of lower 'max rating' races, weather they be group or handicapps, with bigger prize pools

Very proud of my comeback NH horse Orange Eyes who won her 2nd G1 2m Hurdle with the Christmas Hurdle!!
I think she will get a 3rd season just to see how long she will be able to fight the young guns.

My flat stayers ran very nice too, won 2x 110 Hcps with highweight.

Congrats all winners and placers and the whole team involved, it's a pleasure to be part of this league.

I'm not going to go deep into this debate at the moment - just to simplify my previous suggestion for two leagues - each league races no more than 20 races per week (flat) League A and B are a mirror of each other with races run.
How to police it? - I'd go by an honesty policy for now, we pretty much know how each established trainer plays their game and we explain how the two leagues run to all new trainers and they all start in League B (casual league). We will know by week 5 if any new trainer has beasts and they will be shifted to League A during the window. I think Jango is a good example - during his first season he was low to middle of the ladder so he would be in League B. This season he would be League A.
There would also need to be changes to TOM and that might just cancelled everything out as it may well be to hard or most probably too time consuming for Leon to implement.
As long as we don't fall into a 'them and us' mentality it should be ok - keep everything above board and if a trainer wants to move from League B to A then we all encourage them and give them the knowledge they need.

Saying all that - SO7 could very well come along and make the A and B League obsolete.

Nope still hate it. It immediately creates a them and us league no matter what you do, and the same schedule each league, ‘The Derby part 2......’ the general concept is all wrong for me, your cheapening the second league results and at the same time sticking two fingers up at the top tier suckers who worked so hard for there success. Now you don’t have to bother, just turn up and win a load of G1’s........ and imagine how much fun you would be having with Jango in league two, especially if he did not want to move to league one.

I genuinely believe if you want to kill off the online league this will be the way to do it.

It isn't going to happen anyway.

Welcome to online gaming.
I have played in many different clans/leagues/groups in many different sorts of games, and player domination and player retention is always the same.

I dont think how you structure the schedule will make much difference to retaining new players.
I know its a chicken and egg thing but think for a moment how the league would handle say 10 new permanent new players.
Handicapping an extra 250 horses a week?
More races to run with hardly enough race runners now?
Be careful what you wish for....

Yes you might get some more volunteers to help out, but you might not.

In the end of the day if you want to grow the size of the league it will come down to volume.
If SO7 includes something that makes the players aware of the League that will help.
Would also help if SO7 had a hard mode that reflected the standard of racing needed to have a crack in the League.

I will use Battlefield as an example.

If players in Battlefield were able to delve into the game files, manipulate them and beef up their weapons to be more powerful than the stock game weapons, you would be banned.
That sort of thing doesn't happen because there are rules in place as that would be seen as cheating.

What has happened with SO6 is there are no rules in place for this - it has been seen as acceptable to some players to do this and there is a part of the community that play the game in this manner. There is also another part of the community who thinks this is cheating. As it is now - if you do not manipulate your breeding you cannot compete in Group races on the flat and most probably the hunt. So in the eyes of some players here - if you don't join the cheaters you can't win Group races - you need to cheat to win Group races.

The reality is - this is how SO6 is. Too late to change and probably no way to police it if it were to change. It is two leagues within one on the flat at least and that is a reality.

For me, the two league idea is just to have level playing fields - for me it is not an us and them thing. You know what I would love to see - two Olympic games - Olympics #1, every one is clean. Olympics #2 everyone is doped up to their eye balls on all sorts of drugs and it's like the League at the moment - we have one group of trainers playing the game fairly stock then we have another group of trainers who are not playing stock at all. Both sets of trainers have worked hard to get where they're at - both sets of trainers have probably put in very similar hours to get there.

What's the difference between manipulating ttf or forcing the game to close so you can make multiple copies of the same horse or breeding with Frankel? The only difference is there is a rule in place that says you can't breed with Frankel because at the earlier stages of SO6 that was perceived as cheating.
It is safe to say that the SO6 League has been successful beyond what any long time players could have imagined - SO4 and SO5 I believe all attempted leagues and they descended into chaos - But SO6 success has highlighted the gulf between stock players and non stock players and the inequalities and for some players 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' is not a valid answer.
SO6 has been a success but it has it's short comings that hopefully SO7 will iron out.

Sorry Doug I totally disagree with u. The first thing is Mark has created Frankel and all the other horses have been computer generated and u could never get a horse that good. In real life u can breed to the same mare year in year out. If Winx wants to go to the same colt every year then she will, that's just like using the ttf's. U said if someone opens up battlefield and gives them super guns is cheating and would get kicked but no one is opening up SO, mark made the game that way and if he was fine with it then it's Not cheating. When the new game comes out I won't have the time or inclination to compete against the big boys( whoever they are) and i'm happy just to play a normal game and whatever happens to them in league well that's where they end up, i'm probably not that competitive in real life and i'm happy to be at the back having fun, having fun is more important than winning. I still have fun playing this game even after all the years. Let's say there wasn't a league i'd still be playing this game, even now.

Winx will be dead by the time she is 30 and in the game sometimes a mare will live that long but most will die by 20 so fair enough you could breed one mare and colt at least 15 times. But to use one mare upteen times or having 10 copies of the same horse - did Mark make the game like that? Did he intend a trainer to crash the game multiple times to get multiple copies of the one horse? I doubt it. Trainers using the race kit to see if there is an advantage - did Mark envisage that? Did Mark really envision trainers to use the ttf? I doubt he did - that is something that the trainers found and exploited - wasn't it Scatters who fessed up to what he had been doing and could be done or did Mark say "Hey guys, you can do this to improve your horses?". It didn't matter for the first two years of SO6 because there was no league and i think it is evident that Mark doesn't follow the league too closely because he is busy busy busy. Just like someone else who is involved in the game who suspected someone of cheating but didn't say anything because he was too busy in life. I wont name anyone but i do have the email to prove it.

A lot of stuff was allowed to happen because it was old school and that is what i said above, things were allowed to happen and back in the day it seemed par for the course but yourself, Paul and Gray - did you really think SO6 League was going to be this successful considering previous attempts? The success of SO6 league has exposed that there isn't a level playing field and all i hope for in SO7 is that there is and there are clearly defind rules about what is and isn't allowed - but i doubt it will be Mark making those rules - I highly doubt it - it will have to be community driven.

Mark should stop the tff file and create Mares/Stallions that can maintain its breeding potential until its 25 years old and stays in your Stud Farm then you get to breed with your horse for longer and this would level out the League playing field and stop the contant copying and transferring to different games.

Gray

I tend to agree with John here in that what is being called cheating for the most part uses readily available game tools, export is a game function as is a yearly import and schedule changes for those that use them, these are design features of the game engine itself, so I find being branded a cheat a little harsh.

I accept that this has been taken forward by players copying and saving these files so that multiple versions of the same horse can be brought into a single game, so I also see Dougs point about the field not being level. But in truth it is utterly level as everyone can do the same thing, some just stand on principle and choose not too. So I cannot agree that after having made that choice to label anyone who does not play the way you do as a cheat is a little off. There is also nothing that the tff files give you that cannot be done without them, it will just take a little longer. There is no manipulation of breeding itself.

My first year in the league I did not use tff files and I was owned, I hated it, as I have ever been a bad loser, so I could walk or I could find out why and what I needed to do to catch up. I choose the later and it took two league seasons to do, the field is level as anyone else may do the same, Jango as a recent example.

But all of this is as academic as it has always been when discussed here, it is too late to undo the breeding many have undertaken and if you banned it, and even if people honoured it, those not using it would still find it hard to catch up. Splitting the league to give access to win group1 races to those who choose to play the game this way or that way and tearing the league in half in the process will be the end of it in my opinion.

And mark has tinkered with tff usage already, used to be that you could bring the same horse in many times in the same season, now you can only bring it in once per year, so he is aware and is still not stopping the behaviour entirely.