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 Guineas EXtra Entry 
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
Wannabe wrote:
Lordedaw wrote:
Crikey, just got in from a hard day at the coal face and see all this.

To clarify, the reason the allowing more than one runner in the big G1 races was suggested was to hopefully give the trainers just under the top level a better chance of winning the G2 and G3 races as the top boys would send both their G1 horses after the G1 prize if they were allowed to.

Allowing the top trainers to run 2 in the G1 therefore gives the second tier trainer more chance of winning the G2 or second tier races.

I think you are all looking at this totally the wrong way round.

The top guys are going to win the G1s anyway but how much more exciting is it if 2 PJR horses are battling 2 Thundersparks or Stephen Rann's or Ghostzappers.

Once again the idea behind it was to make it more exciting as a spectacle. Give the top boys a chance to race against their own horses IF THEY WANT (it isn't compulsory to run 2 just an option). Give them a different challenge as well. Throw your Guineas winner into the Derby as well as your Derby horse. Put your Derby winner in the Leger as well as your Leger horse. IE make it more realistic. Who will be the first trainer to train 1-2 in a classic etc.

But the MAIN objective was to try and give the second tier of trainer more of a chance in the G2s that they would be winning in reality because the big guns want the G1s more.

People keep saying its not about numbers of wins etc its about creating a platform everyone can enjoy and have some success in. Blimey, the first season I was involved I didn't even have any horses in but I enjoyed watching the races and the community.

But ultimately you want the best racing the best and if they just happen to be in the same stable and the trainer would rather win the Guineas than a G3 at Kempton why shouldn't he be able to run both.

Top trainers running 2 also means one more race that can be won by someone else which is better for everyone.

I honestly can't see why anyone would have an issue with it. Personally I would allow unlimited entries in every race just like in reality. No one can have more than 25 horses so if the top trainer runs 3 in the Derby that is 2 other races he can't win that someone else will.

Have to say I am totally dumbfounded as to why anyone would object to it.

How many supposed second stringers has Aiden O'Brien won classics with !



You make a good case for multiple horses in a race, but there are some flaws in your case.

In week 3, there are 3 G1 races for 3yo and one 0-100 h/cap over 1 mile. There are no G2 or G3 races over 1 mile as alternatives for mid tier trainers.

If I had two good milers, I wouldn't put them in the same G1 race if there was a G2 race as well. I would enter a horse in each race. That's just me however. Maybe that is not in the "Spirit of the Game" as you intended, but it is a reality.


That was exactly the point Jim. You might not do it, but maybe Paul or John would which would make the G1 more competitive and also give the second tier more of a chance in the second tier race as there would be less G1 opposition.

I think Doug, Stu and I see it from a different perspective as the commentators. I will try and make this brief and to the point if I can so sorry if it looks blunt.

1. No one minds the top boys winning the best races its the way it should be, with the odd surprise now and again.
2. But ,,,,, when we read out the same trainer names coming 1-2-3 in the G1s G2s and G3s it puts new people off because they think they will never win a good race.
3. I think we are possibly down to 25 - 30 trainers and once you lose people it is harder to get them back. You, Stephen Rann and Thunder coming back has made the flat competitive again. If you hadn't it would just be Paul v Josh with John not having a big flat team. We have to find ways of encouraging new people in and the only way we will do that is if they have better chances of winning 'good' races.
4. How many in Paul's rookie of the year contest will still be racing next week.
5. We have to find ways to attract and keep new people like Daniel (Taunton/Carl Arrogante) etc and scrapping a 4th or 5th isn't going to do it.
6. The gap between top and new is too big. To be blunt we need to take away some winning opportunities from the top boys and spread the cream around a bit more. This was just an experiment to see if it helped.

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
:lol: Guess we have found our forum discussion topic for the review show next week

I was not hugely against running 2 in classics in fact since reading Martin eloquently
explaining it again it does make sense I was against a 25 horse stable mainly for the
reason if i was starting again from the bottom and I saw a top trainer had an extra 5
horses id find it a bit disheartening and it would be worse for a middle tier trainer who
would get pushed further down I honestly try and look at things from both sides.

I would have been happy to see trainers ranked 1 to 13 last season start with 20 and
trainers 14 to 26 get the extra 5 slots I think that would have worked well.

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
Quote:
4. How many in Paul's rookie of the year contest will still be racing next week.


1 I think

Quote:
That was exactly the point Jim. You might not do it, but maybe Paul or John would which would make the G1 more competitive and
also give the second tier more of a chance in the second tier race as there would be less G1 opposition.


I treat the league the same as real life and classics are EVERYTHING and you bet id send 2 there and miss the G2

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:19 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Quote:
4. How many in Paul's rookie of the year contest will still be racing next week.


1 I think

Quote:
That was exactly the point Jim. You might not do it, but maybe Paul or John would which would make the G1 more competitive and
also give the second tier more of a chance in the second tier race as there would be less G1 opposition.


I treat the league the same as real life and classics are EVERYTHING and you bet id send 2 there and miss the G2


Those 2 comments from Paul say it al really .... and a lot quicker than I would have !!

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
ghostzapper74 wrote:
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Still be two horses in one race John and one less elsewhere, if someone wants to breed a pacemaker and take up a stable slot for one race, I would have to say that's shrewd training for the league... although agree with you John on the field size issue & something we can all discuss for better or worse....

(Loving the drama of it all, I remember when life was simpler on a Thursday night, Tesco's with Mum & Dad and then Top of the Pops :lol: :lol: :lol:)

No one is making anyone enter two in a classic, everyone's choice.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:39 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
ghostzapper74 wrote:
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Not going to get into a huge debate as there is no point as no one seems to remember the original discussion.

Proper course limits for the races. 30 in the Guineas 20 in the Derby etc second runners eliminated first then lowest rated.

Let someone run a pacemaker if they want. Its more realistic than breeding with 28 versions of the same horse that travel backwards and forward in time mating with horses that were born 100 years after they were or having people stockpile thousands of horses with very similar breeding !!

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:43 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
I have no issue with this rule. Adds realism if anything, which i think is a positive.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:45 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
Lordedaw wrote:
Let someone run a pacemaker if they want. Its more realistic than breeding with 28 versions of the same horse that travel backwards and forward in time mating with horses that were born 100 years after they were or having people stockpile thousands of horses with very similar breeding !!


Spot on.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
Anadin wrote:
ghostzapper74 wrote:
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Still be two horses in one race John and one less elsewhere, if someone wants to breed a pacemaker and take up a stable slot for one race, I would have to say that's shrewd training for the league... although agree with you John on the field size issue & something we can all discuss for better or worse....

(Loving the drama of it all, I remember when life was simpler on a Thursday night, Tesco's with Mum & Dad and then Top of the Pops :lol: :lol: :lol:)

No one is making anyone enter two in a classic, everyone's choice.


The problem is u could run that pacemaker in every two runner races and what if u have 4 or 5 pacemakers ,it would be carnage.

And u can still watch ToTp, its just on a Saturday night. We up to Christmas 1984, great few years of music. Me and my partner are 100's of miles apart but we always watch it. One of the best things on Tv, 84 was the year of Nick and Nik :D :D


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:48 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
I don't know all the new rules for this season.

In week 1 we had G1 races which had unraced horses so I assume it's now ok to run unraced multiple horses in G1's now? Or is it only allowed in week 1? Were we allowed 2 entries in week 1? Is multiple entries only apply to G1's and not G2 or G3? What about handicaps?

The league rules are looks complicated.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
ghostzapper74 wrote:
Anadin wrote:
ghostzapper74 wrote:
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Still be two horses in one race John and one less elsewhere, if someone wants to breed a pacemaker and take up a stable slot for one race, I would have to say that's shrewd training for the league... although agree with you John on the field size issue & something we can all discuss for better or worse....

(Loving the drama of it all, I remember when life was simpler on a Thursday night, Tesco's with Mum & Dad and then Top of the Pops :lol: :lol: :lol:)

No one is making anyone enter two in a classic, everyone's choice.


The problem is u could run that pacemaker in every two runner races and what if u have 4 or 5 pacemakers ,it would be carnage.

And u can still watch ToTp, its just on a Saturday night. We up to Christmas 1984, great few years of music. Me and my partner are 100's of miles apart but we always watch it. One of the best things on Tv, 84 was the year of Nick and Nik :D :D


lol :lol:
Gonna have a stab Kershaw and Heyward ?


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:52 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
well I am running 4 horses in the newmarket classics so means i have to run
a 10 furlong horse in the Randwick Guineas as i have no milers left so Martin's
point is correct

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:52 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
ghostzapper74 wrote:
Anadin wrote:
ghostzapper74 wrote:
I'm with Jim on this and if I had two I would run one in each.

Whats to stop someone doing a Aidan and running 1 pacemaker and perhaps screw someone else horse, I just don't think it adds anything to the league.

I want to know who's the best horse and not luckiest. There is no way Epsom can handle a big field without spoiling the race.


Still be two horses in one race John and one less elsewhere, if someone wants to breed a pacemaker and take up a stable slot for one race, I would have to say that's shrewd training for the league... although agree with you John on the field size issue & something we can all discuss for better or worse....

(Loving the drama of it all, I remember when life was simpler on a Thursday night, Tesco's with Mum & Dad and then Top of the Pops :lol: :lol: :lol:)

No one is making anyone enter two in a classic, everyone's choice.


The problem is u could run that pacemaker in every two runner races and what if u have 4 or 5 pacemakers ,it would be carnage.

And u can still watch ToTp, its just on a Saturday night. We up to Christmas 1984, great few years of music. Me and my partner are 100's of miles apart but we always watch it. One of the best things on Tv, 84 was the year of Nick and Nik :D :D


Pacemakers wouldn't be a big problem since they would trail the real runners and would have a very low rating. Meaning in their next race their rating would be too low might not be elligible


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:53 pm
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Post Re: Guineas EXtra Entry
Let it play out as agreed, this was in essence a trial in many respects anyway, but for me personally I did not set up a team to take advantage of this and would be highly unlikely to enter two in one race aside the national, or if I really have nothing else available. Wins are the number I play for, not money or grade.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:56 pm
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