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 NH distance issues 
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Post NH distance issues
Githyanki wrote:
Not sure what it says about the rating system from a consistency point of view. My national horse went to 144 simply for winning a maiden......


..... and don't get me started on Ettrick Mill who on the back of 2 narrow wins still sits on 150 despite being quite clearly not up to the task of burdening top weight with a mid way pull up in a rare race he could get into this week. So he still faces the prospect of giving weight to last years winner (who surely should get auto top weight - they keep a separate handicap for National in real life remember). No races for him to run in this week, which is laughable as 4m horses should qualify to run in Welsh National, therefore he will have to run in the King George as its a Group 1 and I will probably get moaned at for running him at a trip short of his best.

These long distance handicap rules need seriously looking at for next season as they are ruining big races like the Henessey, Welsh National, Whitbread etc as well as the National itself. None of the class 3m+ chasers can get in due to distance rules, which is again farcical. Virtually every horse that runs in the real National would be ineligible if the real world used S06 rules. Also there is now, as Paul has confirmed, going to be a horse running of at least 155 so every horse bar about 5 will be out of the handicap because the distance is uncompetitive as the higher rated horse can't get regular runs.

Sorry to moan but this is a big issue in my book and there is no point not mentioning it until the end of the season as everyone goes away for six weeks and its too late to do anything. And before anyone suggests it adding a set of 4 mile group 1 races is not the answer. Allowing the 4 milers into the races they would run in in reality is the only sensible way forward. NH horses regularly move up and down half a mile at a time and GN horses almost never run over 4m except in the National. The distance rule in NH should be 4f either side and it should freeze at 3m 4f meaning once you qualified at 3m 4f you could run in anything above and down to 3m. You guys who follow NH racing closely know what I am saying here and if you want realism that HAS to be the way forward.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:10 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Martin I totally disagree with u on this one, its not real life. I'd call it cheating if someone kept running a 4m4 horse over 3m4, it would be running of a false H'cap mark especially for the National and that is not good.

I've been bleeting on about this for 3 seasons and no one has taken a blind bit of notice of me because they didn't have the highest rated horses but now other people have high rating horses people are not happy, My top horses ( Present Abbey - Struggles Glory) had very little races ( well ok only one race and that was the group1 race) to run in but u have to put up with it just like I've had to in the past.

I've always said there should be more 4m2+ races and the national horses should be made to run in them because I believe running horses over less distance than that means they are not showing their true ability. It would be like a horse aiming for the Hennssey running over 2m4 and getting a good H'cap mark, not good for the league in my opinion .

And Paul is not doing anything wrong because James did it last season with his National Horse, the rules state that u must have run a certain amount of times . If u want to change the rules then that's fine by saying a returning horse has to run once that season to get in over a certain distance but they are not the rules at this moment in time.


Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:34 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Since i was asked to bring back the national winner this year i knew to give him at least a chance and I
think thats the point of him coming back you would at least want him to have a chance otherwise it would
just be a wasted slot anyway back to the plan i knew with him rated 144 id need one of my new horses to be
rated higher in an aim to put the majority out of the handicap to give Coffee De London the best chance of
defending his crown and I Have managed to do this by sticking to all of the rules I have not breached 1 single
rule. if Coffee De London had to run off top weight against newly bred horses he'd have no chance on earth we
all know how trainers can improve there horses vastly in the gap between leagues what would the point be in me
trying to brng him back as i say it would be pointless and he'd probably pull up so for sure I am going to run my
155 rated horse in the national.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:51 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
I tend to agree with John on this one although completely understand your logic Martin as a fellow jumps fan

The Moores Millions could be open handicaps, they are 100,000 races so the best horses should be allowed to run in them.

Just a thought


Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:52 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Since i was asked to bring back the national winner this year i knew to give him at least a chance and I
think thats the point of him coming back you would at least want him to have a chance otherwise it would
just be a wasted slot anyway back to the plan i knew with him rated 144 id need one of my new horses to be
rated higher in an aim to put the majority out of the handicap to give Coffee De London the best chance of
defending his crown and I Have managed to do this by sticking to all of the rules I have not breached 1 single
rule. if Coffee De London had to run off top weight against newly bred horses he'd have no chance on earth we
all know how trainers can improve there horses vastly in the gap between leagues what would the point be in me
trying to brng him back as i say it would be pointless and he'd probably pull up so for sure I am going to run my
155 rated horse in the national.


You haven't done anything wrong Paul and nobody is saying that at all. I think it's great you brought him back


Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Just to clarify here I wasn't having a go at Paul (I am sure you know that Paul - although as a side issue I am sure some people could argue that ensuring most of the field are out of the GN handicap isn't much different to running a sprinter in a mile and a half race to set the race up for your second entry. :lol: ) I was suggesting that the system is not geared up to allow horses to participate in the correct races. This has been accentuated today by the discovery that my Grand National horse cannot run in the Welsh Grand National (and I am sure it isn't just me bewildered by this). I am sorry but anyone who can't see that that is ridiculous obviously isn't interested in a 'sim' type league.

Even other distances are affected, how often do you see 2 mile chasers running over 2m 4f, every day is the answer but here it isn't allowed.

As a matter of interest for those few of us that still play the game properly ie full seasons with proper campaigns for the horses, what races do you all run your GN horses in throughout to 'get the bars up' ? Ettrick Mill, Friendly King, Fine Kingdom and last years Crazy Parachute all run in the big 3m 2f upwards races in my game and regularly win them. Only time they go near 4m is National and Scots Nat.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:13 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
I knew you were not having a pop at me Martin i just wanted to explain myself really

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:31 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Echo that, I have no issue with what your doing Paul, i’d do the same, and indeed my original post was more about why a maiden win rates a horse on par with a national win, on a horse with a line of ‘1’s in form, or why the patchy form of your 155 makes it higher after one win. Consistency was the wrong word.

There are generally not enough races accessible to high rated long distance types, I ditched a returning G1 winner in the window for this reason alone, course Sod’s law prevails and the replacement who i happen to know is average at best, romped home in his maiden against largely unraced competition and he now carries a 150 mark that effectively writes him off for the season, 150 for beating who? The probable best horse fell.......

Like John I am not convinced lessening the handicap restrictions is the answer, regardless of the accuracy, more races and maybe force them to run more than 1 at 4m so a more accurate handicap can be established?

As for where I run them in game, all my national horses are long staying 3m and 3.4m horses so they run those, I have no true 4m breeding line. And I share your welsh national pain with the aforementioned 150 one race wonder.


Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:33 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues


IMO I would have no issues with these rules next season

Distance rules 2 miles to 3 miles 3
horse must run within 3f either side of best maiden performance
if Tom Fails to filter horses out we maybe need a race secretary to decide which horses get thrown
out due to breach of distance rules.

Grand National Distance rules
from 3 miles 4 up there are no distance rules but to run in the national your horse must run
3 times and must have completed one race at 4 miles or above if your horse pulls up or falls at
4 miles it must run again over 4 miles to qualify for the national.

thoughts?

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:49 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Ok Here Goes lol


Josh

Race 34 Master Smudge Maiden Chase
http://startersordersonlineleague.com/#/admin-handicap

Joshua's horse won by Nearly 10 Lengths Josh was saying about his horse getting a 144 for winning a maiden so what weight should Eight The King get then Josh ? 170 ? i give it a 150 the reason being only 14 Runners and the three behind him where Debutants not from the top Stables and the 5th home was Sirius Chills horse who went up to 84 followed by Derek's horse Stu James (115) and Darren Thompsons Horse Osipris (108) two making debuts now i cant go and give these horses less than Sirius Chills horse by right i should but i cant take one race as a true ability of horses on just Loyal Royal Sirius horse finishing in front of them other wise all the horses below Loyal Royal will be rated very low i have to look at each race and kind of guess by Trainer and the stables abilities Darren is quite a good trainer and i have a idea about his horses as i do with sirius now the second Time the horses Run i should get a better idea but its all guess work in Maidens and the only thing that is a help Really is knowing what the trainers horses are like so your horse might be overated Josh but i can only judge on it on this one race and winning by 10 lengths.

Martin

Race 1

Ettrick Mill - 150 won by length an half
Churchtown Boy - 136
Ghass And Air - 120
Bargain Well Struck - 122
Fancy Footwork - 113

Race 2

Ettrick Mill - 150 Won by three quarters of a Length
Monsun - 140
Bright Dream - 140
The Long Goodbye - 155
Mirri Maz Dur -132

Martin above is Ettricks Mills two wins and horses who were behind Him and the ratings all the horses are now on I dont think he has been that Harshly Treated it has won a Group race maybe I should start dropping horses a couple of pounds when pulling up but only when the horse has form in the book and if everybody is on board with that I can start implementing that from next week.

Martin I don't know if you ever downloaded any Mod schedules but I have many races for my Grand National horses to run before the big day the game schedule is useless.


Velka Pardubickia 4m 0-180
Cork National 3 4f G2H
Glenfarclas Cross County (November)3m 7f 0-160
Solar Signs Handicap Chase 4m Hexham 0-180 in Real Life i believe the Rating to be much lower
Bar One Racing H'Cap Fairyhouse 3m 5f 0-140
Devon Marathon Exeter 4m 0-140
London National 3m 5f Sandown 0-150
Scottish Borders Handicap 4m 0-160
Glenfarclas Cross County (December)3m 7f 0-160
Coral Welsh National Chepstow 3m 5f G3H
Lincolnshire National Market Rasen 3m 5F 0-160
At The Races Sussex National Plumpton 3m5f 0-130
Yorkshire National Catterick 3m 6f 0-160
Betfred Classic Warwick 3m 5f G3H
Burns Pet West Wales Nat. Ffos Las 3m 4f 0-180
Grand National Trial Haydock 3m 4f G3H
Eider Chase Newcastle 4m 1f 0-150
Glenfarclas Cross County ( Festival)3m 7f 0-160
Midlands National Uttoxeter 4m 1f Listed handicap



Gray

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:56 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Since i was asked to bring back the national winner this year i knew to give him at least a chance and I
think thats the point of him coming back you would at least want him to have a chance otherwise it would
just be a wasted slot anyway back to the plan i knew with him rated 144 id need one of my new horses to be
rated higher in an aim to put the majority out of the handicap to give Coffee De London the best chance of
defending his crown and I Have managed to do this by sticking to all of the rules I have not breached 1 single
rule. if Coffee De London had to run off top weight against newly bred horses he'd have no chance on earth we
all know how trainers can improve there horses vastly in the gap between leagues what would the point be in me
trying to brng him back as i say it would be pointless and he'd probably pull up so for sure I am going to run my
155 rated horse in the national.


Paul I slightly disagree with u about returning horses especially over these longer distances. I was talking to Del about this last week and his returning horse ran better this time ( older) than he ever did. I think horses improve when they get older over these extreme distances . They potential goes down but the jumpers bars go up and so they seem to get better. If my two horse Present Abbey or Struggles Glory were rated slightly less ( I think about 160 ) then I would have brought them back and one of mu horses Pomme Tiepy won the national with a rating of 140+ so u can still win it and last years second had 140+. Take for instance my horse Bright Dream , he's finished 3rd and 2nd so far in the league and he's rated 140 and so the maiden winners that get around 140 are right , I think gray does a great job with these long distance horses but there's just not enough of them to run in. I think there should be one over 4m2+ every week and some weeks two with a group race.

Look to everyone who has a 140+ rated long distance chaser, the best stayers every year has a 140+ rating and its always been that way. My stayers ended up with a rating of 160 and so if u have the top 3 or 4 chasers then they will end up with a high rating.

Martin my Present Abbey won her first two races and was rated 150 and Struggles was Rated 164 :shock: :shock: Oi H'capper u was trying to kill poor Struggles :lol: :lol:


Last edited by ghostzapper74 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:59 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
I have never thought making any changes to anything during the season as a good thing
changes need to be made between seasons changes are going to have implications for some trainers
and are going to benefit other trainers i dont think moving the goalpost is ever a good thing mid season
just my opinon

My horse fully deserved its high rating after her last performance if you have success early with these
type of horses you are going to pay for it with weight.

Martin if it is true your horse has won a Group Race Then i think your horse has a high reason for a good
reason

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:03 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Paul I would say u need to finish over 4m2+ to be able to get into the national , I think 4 miles is to short .


Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:07 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
My opinion on the NH is that we have to take into account quite a few people struggle with all the terminology, qualifications process, eligibility etc as they may not follow NH racing or not even have it in their homeland.

I would propose 3 very simple and straight forward changes to make everything better for all.

1. Distance rules for handicaps 4f either side with an upper limit of 3m 4F

2. All Novices races to be 4 or 5yo only. With either every other race to be open to all or open horses to be 6yo + whatever the majority decide. The main reasoning behind this is that a lot of people get confused about what they can run in and in truth the Novice system doesn't work in a league where the majority of horses only run for one season.

3. Either do away with NHF as they are usually won by 1m flat horses anyway or not start them until after the window and allow only horses that haven't won a hurdle or chase race to enter.


Those three simple changes would all make things easier, more exciting and I think would encourage more people to partake as in truth the NH is where people are more likely to have some success initially.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:09 pm
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Post Re: NH distance issues
Lordedaw wrote:
My opinion on the NH is that we have to take into account quite a few people struggle with all the terminology, qualifications process, eligibility etc as they may not follow NH racing or not even have it in their homeland.

I would propose 3 very simple and straight forward changes to make everything better for all.

1. Distance rules for handicaps 4f either side with an upper limit of 3m 4F

2. All Novices races to be 4 or 5yo only. With either every other race to be open to all or open horses to be 6yo + whatever the majority decide. The main reasoning behind this is that a lot of people get confused about what they can run in and in truth the Novice system doesn't work in a league where the majority of horses only run for one season.

3. Either do away with NHF as they are usually won by 1m flat horses anyway or not start them until after the window and allow only horses that haven't won a hurdle or chase race to enter.


Those three simple changes would all make things easier, more exciting and I think would encourage more people to partake as in truth the NH is where people are more likely to have some success initially.


I've been here from the start and I still have no idea about these rules :shock: :shock: I still cant work out if my Northern Bay can run in the welsh national next week. :? :?


Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:12 pm
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