Getting rid the of whole novice side in the NH is likely to be as offensive to the NH fans as doing away with the whole Australia card would be to you Doug.

Really is it that complicated? For the most part the TOM filters your entry options the rest is just team selection. I would be vehemently opposed to removing this as much as I would be making the open chasers 6yo. If to make it easier is the only rational then the argument is flawed.

And given the real top NH races are accessible to 5yo horses I fail to see the merits of the realism arguement either. Best horses would be the novices at 5yo, top races would be degraded, trial efforts are doubled and returning NH horses would be a thing of the past. Flawed badly thought through and solving a problem that in my view does not exist.

Well the old Dodo didn't expect all this to kick off. Sadly I think a couple of people here are far more concerned with their own continued success than the future of the league, which despite reports to the contrary is not flourishing, just look how few trainers we have.

Everyone hated the two runner rule when I suggested it last year. Now everyone thinks its the best thing since sliced bread (at least in the live stream they did)

I could respond to each and every comment but to be honest I don't see the point. As with everything nothing will please everyone and I guess the loudest shouters will undoubtedly get their own way.

Why did this issue come up. Well, I'm sure Doug will back me up on this. As we have been doing most of the jumps comms and review show things (until Stu got on board) we get a lot of private messages and emails from people asking about NH races because they don't understand why some novices can run in some open races but not others and the whole things needs simplification.

The easiest thing to do ... and this should please everyone if you take the time to digest it rather than shooting straight from the hip is .... REPLICATE REAL LIFE - In real life NOVICES can run in OPEN RACES.

JUST LET NOVICES RUN IN EVERYTHING (Except GN of course) Then everyone can keep their 5yo open horses and still have 5yo novices. Just restrict Novices races to 5. Juveniles to 4 and everything else is open to all. Coneygree won the Gold Cup as a novice. That is preferable to 6up anyway and I did suggest it in my first post on the subject but some people have been so busy worrying about their own position they never saw past 6up.

Darren's point is very relevant too ... the NH is very top heavy with Graded races. The majority of the NH card should be handicaps. This week there are multiple Graded races at most distances but you can be sure the top trainers will still pack the maidens out and put a top rated in the handicap so most are running out of the handicap.

As for having a pop at Doug well that is bang out of order as that bloke stays up until God knows knows what time recording previews with Stu and me and set the standard with the comms. Like many a non UK based player he enjoys the NH but doesn't enjoy the unnecessary obstacles put in the way. Add to that the fact that the current schedule means winners are going to be very few and far between for players like him it isn't difficult to see why he is thinking of jacking it in. Look at the lists of trainers. Is there one single trainer who plays NH only - don't think so. But there are quite a few who only play flat. Most of the newbies come in as flat trainers we need to encourage them to play NH and to do that we have to become more all encompassing. Discussion threads where people are in effect saying "I might not win as much if the rules change so I'm not playing" are not going to help that at all.

I shall return to being extinct and apologise if I have ruffled any feathers dodo or otherwise. Without progress we'd still be burning witches ..... oh and only one 5yo has won the Gold Cup since the first world war !!

I don't understand the Novice problem Novices are in mature horses like the 2yo Horses on the Flat that's what they are young or late maturing horses the babies of NH Racing I find it offensive like Josh posted that you think its ok to get rid of and turn them into low handicaps Doug you know and I know how you feel about the Australian Flat races being downgraded.

You say you use Cast offs for your NH Team so you never actually Played the NH Game ? perhaps if you did it might help you understand it better there is no way i would ever get rid of Novice races and thats a full stop never ever ever and thats from a Jump Fanatic


Gray

Just to add a few more stats to back up the Dodo's badly thought through out argument.

Most common age of the GN winner is 9


... and the Gold Cup hasn't been won by a 5yo since Golden Miller in 1932

... only 7 5yo Champion hurdlers since the war

... no 5yo has ever won the Queen Mother Champion chase (Except Master Minded, thanks to Darren and Kev)

... no 5yo has ever won the Hennessey (Ladbroke)

... no 5yo has ever won the Whitbread (Bet 365)

... only 5yo to win King George was Manicou in 1950 who was 6 a week later !!

... the Welsh Grand National is actually open to 4yo but has never been won by anything younger than 6

... Mackeson Gold Cup - open to 4yo only won by 2 5yos since it started in 1960

... Irish Grand National open to 5yo - never been won by one

... Scottish Grand National - open to 5yo but never been won by one.

I could go on but I think you get the picture.

Of course if people played the game properly rather than battery farm from multiple versions of the same horse and turned flat rejects into jumpers we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

If I have caused offense then I apologise. Though I have seen others use the same approach to carry the day in their favour and those who are a lot more subtle. If you want to make the league easy mode fine too, we can just make all races G1, but as my final post spare a thought for all those who have expended serious time to reach a certain level that you now want to break down so you do not have too do the same.

In my view the loudest minority are shaping the league future, and not in a good way rather than overcoming the obstacles it presents. NH is not rocket science, play it in game and as gray said maybe you will work it out. And I am not sure I see the mass queue of new trainers desperate to play but too confused by novices to try, the audience for this will likely always be relatively small, and growing smaller today it seems.

Finally hold the door John, as if this is where people want this to go, i think i’ll follow you out.

Actually the proposed changes will make it harder which is likely the real concern for the gamers rather than the racing fans.

I have to say when Leon put the novice option on upload it has to be the best thing that's happened to the NH league in many years.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the NH side except for maybe a few more handicaps needed and national upped to 7YO+

However, we all want what's best for the league and saying you'll quit is not helping yourself, others or the league.

Let's enjoy the GAME for what it is, the league has never been better with the excellent previews, live streams and honest, hardworking players

I agree ... and well said James. I appear to inadvertently started this so lets knock it on the head once and for all. My problem is I forget that we have some who don't really follow racing so don't care about realism. Its a fantasy world ... best it stays that way. Lock and delete this Paul before it gets silly.

Martin - Please do not stop bringing ideas to the table, I think it's great that we discuss these things.

Some I agree with some I don't but that's just human nature

non of you will walk away the game has you hooked its like hotel California
you can check in but you can never leave

come on guys for heavens sake this is ridiculous people threatening to quit is no way forward
and wont help the situation

it seems we have finally found the subject that has split us right down the middle and this
subject is now becoming harmful we need to come together and sort something out not go
our separate ways.

Believe me i have no agenda and only have the leagues best interest at heart always have i have
been here longer than most.

we are a community not 2 separate factions

calm down and lets have a little perspective (On Both Sides)

Lets also not forget SO7 is on the way that will be a great leveler


IMO let the polls speak for themselves & go with that.

Please lets not go down the road of name calling or criticizing people for the way they play the
game i honestly think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here lets have some cop on guys

Ok you cannot go around messing with my Jumps league I am like a vegan standing outside Macdonald's you aint touching nothing I kill you first that's how passionate I am on this game The Jumps Game its a game I know but I rather pull my nails out with players and have you lot mess with my jumps league go and mess with the flat turn the group 1 Breeders cup into a Handicap.

Being silly but we knows its a game and not real but we like to think we try and keep to realism whenever possible nothing wrong with throwing out ideas and having a discussion as you guys know I care more about the jumps than the flat I love jump racing a few ideas thrown out there by a few more 4mile races yep I on board with that Chasers to be at least 5yo yea that sounds good to me more Hunter chases I hear yea sounds good to me in the future Japanese Jumping action? yea international jump racing from around the World in SO7 as we go on more and more both codes will expand.

This is a discussion and thats it no need to argue give your view in a polite way be heard but please try and stay close to what real racing is like that is what some want to do but this game can be time consuming some trainers have the time others dont some play the slow game with one game over lots of season we all play the game differently so we all at different levels of League Horses for some it an be quite horrible especially a Rookie to see how far behind you might be.

But calm down everybody has a view and everybody wants every trainer to succeed getting a winner and the joy of getting your first winner as shown by Tim when he broke his duck is what we want the little trainers to get dont fight please we all in here for the LOVE Of THE GAME.

Gray

Excellent post. Well said.

And I have to add, the best about the league is that so many of you care about the league. That makes it so well organized and run. Discussions are good and important to develop and evolve the league. That is good. And nothing is decided yet. Just airing of opinions. A careful evolvement is the way forward I think.

I'm not trying to abolish Novices from the league! I am with Martin on this - 4 and 5yo's are novices - so called immature horses - 6yo and up is open grade - mature horses.
I have never said anything about turning novice races into low handicaps - can you please cut and paste my comment where I said that!
You lot were making a mockery of Australian racing in the league straight off the bat and still would be if i didn't speak up - with the exception of Paul who does understand that Australian or any other Country's racing should be respected.

Look at the poll for changing the minimum age of GN horses - it's a tie between 6yo and 7yo!
1 vote to keep it as it is!
So to change Open class to 6yo+ seems quite feesible - which will draw a distinct line between Novice and Open and if an Open race is open to Novices then no worries!

If you are a trainer smashing out generations in an afternoon on a modified schedule - juggling ttf files between folders - then i can't see what the problem is! It would take you no more than 10mins to age a horse or 150 horses, one more year.
Unlike trainers who play a whole season.
If you look thru the ages of horses in the Hunt by a lot of the mid and low trainers (myself excluded) there are a lot of older horses and these players obviously are playing the Hunt game and breeding Hunt horses. Maybe the reason why a lot of horses potential drops a little at 6yo is that your breeding is top heavy Flat?
50% of Leon's stable is 6yo+ with the oldest being a 9yo and we all know Leon only plays a Hunt game with his cast offs in the Flat.

I applaud Darren for his radical solution - that took courage......something that i have thought but would never have suggested in the forums. Interesting how no one is taking pot shots at him!

Gray - I do play a casual jumps game with the best part of it as being the jockey. I do have a small breeding stable - but you know....I'm an idiot for enjoying playing full seasons and for being that idiot i really only have time to concentrate on my flat stable.
For the most part I enter Flat cast offs in the Hunt to try and help make the numbers look good.

Novice racing in the League is in name only - when you have one of the big five trainers come out and state if they have a good horse they put it in Novice racing to avoid handicap racing and getting a big weight.

My advice for future mid to low level trainers - skip Novice class - you may as well be racing in Open class and you may get lucky in an Open Hcp because the big trainers are trying to avoid their best horses carrying weight by making them Novices.

You know - some people are having a crack at Hans - thinking he is cheating or running his horses over unsuitable distances to gain advantage - but the majority of you are church mice when James Shea brought his GN winner back - ran it in hurdles because he didn't need to qualify that horse and exploited the game to his advantage so his horse didn't carry a big weight! Legal cheating!

Gray - nothing personal matey - business as usual.
I gotta go to work.

None Taken Doug but the (I have never said anything about turning novice races into low handicaps - can you please cut and paste my comment where I said that!) was not you I was writing about all posts and I might be wrong because I am lazy but I think it was Darren who wrote that mate so I was not having a go at you Doug or Darren just saying we can not get rid of Novice races.

We all try and place our best horses to win races and like I said I am one who spilt my best three Hurdlers into Juvenile/Novice and hopefully Champion Hurdler then any other will be handicappers I expect every top trainer does it that way I have a problem with the 6UP most races are 5UP after December in UK for chasers that includes most graded and Handicap Races we do have races held for older horses that are known as Veteran Races and are I believe 9 or 10UP but only horses that are good in that age range are extreme distance Races and I don't think trainers would upload horses at that age for one or two handicaps over 3miles.

When Uploading all guys need to know if you are planning to have say 2 2m 4f Chasers'Hurdlers you know your Novice must be a 5YO and your open horse can be 5, 6 or whatever age you want it it wont make that much difference as you said Leon has horses older and it doesn't affect his stable and i believe Leon now plays the jumps more than Flat because it is less time consuming than getting a good flat stable to compete with the top guns.

Gray