I am in favour of these rules to go forward in following leagues.
The Novice rule would make the Hunt so much easier to understand - To be honest with you all - i still don't understand how it all works after four seasons in the league. To me it's a total dogs breakfast! If the Hunt rules stay the same then this will be my last season in the Hunt. It's too confusing and takes up too much of my time.
4 and 5yos as Novices makes it so black and white and vastly user friendly. Open 6yo+ - I/We know exactly where we stand.
I also believe this rule change will not effect any trainers at all.

I now a lot of you love the NHF but i think it's a bit pointless - I'd rather see a low rated Hunt race instead.

NOW maybe we should make a series of long distance Hunt races that are solely aimed at National runners? We could name them 'GN Hunt Qualifiers' or something like that so everyone recognises what they are for and hopefully it will make it easier for Gray to hcp all the GN runners and everyone can see their two GN runners race every couple of weeks instead of sitting in a stable all season?

I don't Understand what the Problem is with understanding Novice's

4yo - I only upload 2 or 3 these are Juveniles would start racing in real life at 3YO but has the Year in the Hunt starts in the Autumn and ends before Summer means they would turn 4 on January 1st so we Start them at 4YO has when we get to the end of the season they would be 4yo's and these are Down as Novices and can run in Juvenile, NHF Races Ordinary 4UP novices and Open Handicaps.

5YO and Up you decide how many Novices you want Novice Races Range from 2m to 3m 1f Hurdles and 2m to 3m 2f Chases you don't get extreme distance's Novice Chases the only race you did was at Cheltenham and that is now a Open Handicap.

what i do is

2 x 2m Novice Hurdlers
1 x 2m 5f Novice Hurdler
2 x 3m Novice Hurdlers Remember these can also run in Handicap Hurdles but not Graded Handicap Hurdles

2 x 2m Novice Chasers
1 x 2m 5f Novice Chaser
2 x 3m Novice Chasers Remember these can also run in Handicap Hurdles but not Graded

That is 13 Horses out of your 30 horses the rest are Open and can run in anything Hurdles/Chases etc.

The idea of a novice is to have a season as a novice and if brought back then it would go into open races but a novice Hurdler in one season should be able to run as a Novice Chaser in second season although i don't know anybody has ever done that.


Now opening up 6UP races if we go now this road then you are stopping Juveniles 4YO and Novices 5YO entering into open Handicaps and this means less races for the horses sorry Doug i know you dont understand the Jump Scene but you cant have a Jump league with no Novices and it would also upset the true jump Fanatics i am sure The flat guys would feel the same if you stop all 2yo races and have 3plus instead.

Gray

I don't think that is the problem Gray. I think a big problem is because we let Novices into some open races and most people can't figure out whether they are eligible or not.

With the way it works now you have 4yo horses running in open chases after week 7 because they can't get into novice races as the big novice races are all deemed 5+ after week 7. That's what people find daft. We have novice races which are restricted to 5 and above and open races 4yos can go in.

If you followed the simple the rules that:

1. Only 4yo - can run in juvenile races - everyone would understand that perfectly

2. Only 4 and 5yo's can run in Novices - everyone would know exactly how that worked

3. Here you have a choice. To keep the majority happy you just let every horse who is 5 run in everything except juvenile and GN and everything 6 and above run in all races that aren't Juvenile or Novice. The great benefit in this is that there would be no need to upload as a novice or an open which would make everyone's life a lot easier. It would also replicate the real world. A novice won the Gold Cup a few seasons ago remember. You would still have competitive novice races and john's Golden Miller which is far and away the best 3m chaser this season could run in the Gold Cup if he wanted it to. It also wouldn't effect anyone's breeding plans. OR you just make open 6yo+

So in its simplest terms this would mean:

A 4yo could run in Juveniles and Novice races only.
A 5yo could run in any race at all except juvenile and the Grand National.
A horse 6yo or older could run in any race at all except juvenile and novice.

Personally though I can't see how or why anyone would just object to:

4yo - Juvenile and Novice
5yo - Novice
6yo+ - Open including Grand National

That is just so simple and straight forward a 4yo (pun intended) could understand it. Everyone has the same amount of time to prepare for next season if we agree something soon and I don't see how it hurts anyone.


The only rule you would have to have is that returning horses can't be novices again which I assume you must have in place already.

Half the problem is that some trainers make their best horses Novices because there are more G Novice races and less handicaps.

That's part of it - chances are, no one ever has.

I still can't see the problem.
What Martin is proposing - and he may well correct me if I have misunderstood - is that Novices become 4 and 5yo's and that Open horses are 6yo+.
So when I do my nominations or upload my stable into TOM - i know straight away that Novice's and Novice races are my 4 and 5yo's.
And yes, 4yo's still race in Juvenile races as well as Novice races.
If my 4 and 5yo Novices can enter Open Handicaps - fine, I can't see why that would stop.
Wouldn't it make it easier for TOM if Novice and Open horses are defined by age as well?

I also want to make it clear that the discussions of proposed changes to the League are in no way personal attacks on any individuals nor are they some sort of power play for control as was seen in SO5 and before! Personally I barely have enough time to do what i do now with the League let alone taking on more responsibility. That is the reason why i am contemplating cutting my Hunt team from future Leagues.

Like Martin mentioned earlier - let's start discussing this stuff now while everyone one is around in the forums and can say their peace/piece and have a voice.
And yes - a lot of these proposed changes are coming from Martin and myself but i think this is happening because I am an outsider so to speak, only joining the League in SO6 and also because I am not from the UK. I can't really speak for Martin but what i do know is his love and knowledge for UK horse racing is tight and i think we should take advantage of his knowledge.

I think its clear your and Martin's intentions are good for me that goes without saying you both are genuine
people.

Most people here are bought up on jumps racing and it is second nature to us all the rules about juveniles
novices open company horses we dont have to even think about because we have seen it all our lives but
for a complete novice or for someone based abroad i can see it being very confusing.

As I said before, making open races 6up means I have to make a very big change to my breeding program. This is a sample of my current 2m hurdlers. Look at the difference in the dark green potential between the horse at age 5 and age 6. There's no way the 6yo is a better horse than the 5yo.







Your idea has merit, but leave it untill SO7 when everyone knows where the goalposts are.

With this new system you are proposing I would have to find a top quality gamebred stallion who doesn't age until 6yo and even then my breeding program would probably be set back at least 10 generations. In reality I would probably need at least 2 or 3 new stallions so that my breeding lines didn't become too in-bred. I certainly don't find it easy to find top quality gamebred stallions.

If we are going to implement a 6up rule for horses, it needs to be decided soon as I have started breeding for next league season already.


Also, I make some of my horses novices because they are too good to run in handicaps. Most of my novices are rated at 130+ and would be running off close to top weight in handicaps.

I must admit, I still get confused with the current system of what races a novice can enter and the system could do with an overhaul, just not until SO7.


Just in case someone points out that this is a one mile flat horse, I breed all my 2m hurdlers in a flat game.

My first thoughts were that your horse was from your flat stable.
What was the red deterioration bar like with this horse?

All my hunt horses are flat cast offs. I find when they are converted to hunt in the ck they are either 16f, 20f or 24f horses - can't say I remember one having an ideal distance further than 24f.



This highlights another problem with the current set up. Myself - any other trainer from a non jumps country or a player not really experienced in horse racing in general would think that Novice means - either young and inexperienced or inexperienced or not a top line competition.
You see, I put my 'lesser' horses in Novice class and you are putting your better horses in Novice class.
After reading your post I now realise I should bypass Novice class altogether.

In all honesty Jim, you're no mug trainer. I don't think it would take you long to adapt or to find some half decent Hunt horses to extend your potential bar life in your stable.

One issue I can here is bringing back juveniles.

If you want stay hurdling at 5 you can't and will have to wait they're 6

I don't like the idea at all boys, u getting to far away from what its suppose to be . People cant talk about changing the age national runners because they don't like 5yo running in the national and yet want to completely change the game. I think breeding jumpers would become as boring as breeding flat horses, they would all become the same. I've got to admit I probably wouldn't have a jumps team because It's different from breeding flat horses but it would end up just like the flat is now.

Jim that potential drop is very similar to mine on at least some of my lines. And I am in agreement making it 6yo+ for the open races will likely mean the supreme and arkle will have better horses in them than the champion and queen mother. The deterioration effect is less noticeable on 2.4m hurdles but still my 5yo’s are largely better. 2.4m chases it is about even as it is for the 3m races both hurdle and chase, where jumping improvements and staying power offset the potential drop.

In addition to this, for all but the 3.4m+ horses at 7yo they largely fall off a cliff, this in itself has no connection to real jump racing where you see class horses at 9 or 10, so this 6yo+ proposal will ensure two things, no horses ever come back if they start as open, no Istabraq’s for the league, and the novices will be better than the elders at many distances.

I have specifically picked horses for the league in some cases for their return potential, I like the idea of getting multiple seasons out of them and as it stands there are 5 or 6 in the current team who pass muster at trial a year older than they are in now. ‘Law of Consequence’ started this for me last season and now has G1 chase wins at 5 and 6, and at 6 she is the best I have, though worth adding her line holds full potential at 6yo.

The changes I think are needed are simple:

1 - more races for the 3.4m types and I am more than happy to do some homework and provide options on this.
2 - GN to 6yo+ as this will not hurt anyone really.
3 - GN horses need to run and finish more than one race at 4m+, maybe 3 of which they need to finish one. Will force a more accurate handicap and throw the race open to everyone rather than who can be the most crafty with the system.

Boys last year Doug was not impressed with us turning the big Oz races into unrealistic races and was not happy about it and what's being talked about is that u going to do the same to a whole jumps game, turn it into a micky mouse game.

Regardless of what happens next season and on, what Josh mentions I think needs to be put in place.


Even if it is last seasons winner returning - it needs to compete in these (for arguments sake) 3 chase races. It will give Gray a good sighter for handicapping for the GN and hopefully give an even spread of weights for it.

As an aside Jim does that potential drop on the 1st January in their 6yo year? Mine go 5% then 10% by around the 10th+ so training them through December and exporting on the 1st January may help hold some potential in your flat horses

Worth repeating that.

I also think people need to be less protective of their games. It does not surprise me that an Australian game does not throw up jumpers or those with the distance you want. Jump breeding is an entirely different animal to flat, and whilst cast off flat horses will get you some of the way, they will not likely be superstars ever. It is akin to moaning about there being no cursing burst in the US game (sorry Sirius), the answer is easy start a new game. Stock it with your best now, which for most will solve the potential issue and breed in the rest. You can even take the offspring back to your main game (which is what I do, quick bred only someplace, make something new, import it back in) I do not even trial my flat horses over jumps anymore or vice versa, there is a specific stable and breed stock for each code, happy to miss out on the odd exception to the rule.

Flat Cast offs get you barely past 2m4 jumps horses you need to breed jumps horses from 3 miles up for sure

The thing is breeding can be a never ending experiment i remember between seasons i did very little because
i felt i could not get a huge amount of improvement from what i already had and you really could go on for
ever and ever and ever.

All i did on the flat side was experiment with some gamebreds in USA and that bought some improvement at certain
distances not a vast amount.

The jumps team is made up from the best i had i did no work on them and you can tell that TBH im amazed im
as high up as i am in the jumps comp.

Id hate to estimate how much gameplay it currently takes to be competitive on the flat i think it would
scare the hell out of me to even complaintate thinking about it so I really hope in SO7 the whole thing is made alot
more simpler for everyone.