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 League domination 
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Post League domination
I cant speak for the jumps but on the flat i can guarantee no one will be dominating the future leaguea in SO7 I am finding it hard
if not impossible to beat or even match the horses I had in the league this season and in some age groups and some distances I'm
getting nowhere near and I have been breeding since the start of the league. I have actually given up in certain areas and just
going with the best that I have produced even though they are not quite as good as I had or have. I term this as hitting the wall.

I think this is a very good thing people are if they give it a chance are going to catch up and most likely go ahead especially if
they find that 1 game changing sire. I Just thought id post this it may encourage people to get stuck in and keep going.

I am also doing a write up on some things I do that may help people which hopefully I will have ready by the end of week 13.

What I have been thrilled with is is some of the newcomers not just giving up showing great patients people like Ryan & John
John has had to wait until week 12 to get his first winner the most well earned win in league history IMO fair play to you lads.

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:05 am
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Post Re: League domination
To give you a view on the jumps I am finding much the same. I have barely logged into my flat game since about week 2 of the league but have done about 18 jump seasons on the NH and whilst I have improved certain divisions so my 2.4m hurdlers and chasers have improved a fair amount and my 2m chasers by a little bit (The Monster still no2/3 on my trial sheets as a 9yo). My 2m hurdlers, 3m hurdlers and 3m chasers are all basically the same with a lot of horses set to return a year older or the difference in the new horses being marginal at best.

It is very much dependent on what your game throws up and may even be set to the original seeding of the game, since the game horses often sire the next generation who still offer up no improvement, great game horses who do not trial well seem for the most part to create more great game horses who cannot trial.

I think a lot of people will close the gaps next year, should be an interesting league.


Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:44 am
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Post Re: League domination
Githyanki wrote:
To give you a view on the jumps I am finding much the same. I have barely logged into my flat game since about week 2 of the league but have done about 18 jump seasons on the NH and whilst I have improved certain divisions so my 2.4m hurdlers and chasers have improved a fair amount and my 2m chasers by a little bit (The Monster still no2/3 on my trial sheets as a 9yo). My 2m hurdlers, 3m hurdlers and 3m chasers are all basically the same with a lot of horses set to return a year older or the difference in the new horses being marginal at best.

It is very much dependent on what your game throws up and may even be set to the original seeding of the game, since the game horses often sire the next generation who still offer up no improvement, great game horses who do not trial well seem for the most part to create more great game horses who cannot trial.

I think a lot of people will close the gaps next year, should be an interesting league.



Agree and to add experimenting with gamebred sires is a must it 9/10 times it sets your lines back in worse case scenario
the experimental offspring trail in last in trials sometimes a long long way behind and the time you put it to them has been
a waste but you just never know. The sire of Ahsari Neyim was a gamebred and produced 5 or 6 league horses for me and
was found a couple of weeks before the start of the season and was a gamechanger he produce the Derby winner.

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:06 am
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Post Re: League domination
Breeding gamebreds is certainly the key but yes rife with frustration too. The St Leger winner the ‘Hooded Claw’ is directly from a gamebred and I covered it a lot over three years or more, that was the only horse that was not a complete donkey, the rest were as you say miles off pace.

I see the same on the NH more often than not the gamebred are a total bust, if I get any small glimmer of trial talent I keep breeding them.

I have a new experiment I am going to try on the NH for my next cycle, but it stinks of desperation :)


Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:20 am
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Post Re: League domination
I'm not totally convinced it's all about 'what the game throws up' in terms of that stallion. It will continue to throw game stallions that breed well at you all the time, they aren't necessarily 'game changers', but in the long term in keeping your lines improving they are vital to keep using. It widens the breeding pool you have from being just improving the same traits all the time. But you have to be able to read what they are adding to your lines. I've also found that game filly's are vital to this. My sprint game was massively changed short term by a game stallion, to the point of taking my 0-70 handicappers in the first upload to adding 3 x group 1 standard 6f horses in the window. They would probably have been the peak if I'd kept just sending all my best Mares to my best Stallions. At that point I've figured it would be tough to better a 6f horse with hold up, so I've added game stallions who were decent breeders, but with a different style of running, therefore having traits my horses don't have. I've far surpassed Xiny Player now who is probably the best 6f horse in the league at the minute. But I've done it from not hammering her lines, or her sires lines, but by making sure I get variety into those lines.

To cut a long story short, I'd say that game changing stallion can change your fortunes massively, a bit like in real life, but if you're not adding enough variety that is all short term gain, and you have to wait for the next one to come along in about 10-15 seasons if you just get all your breeding from that. For long term you have to have lots of game bred mares and use a lot of hand picked Game stallions for your own bred mares. This keeps the lines improving enough as you're constantly adding traits you may be lacking.

Mares are being massively overlooked here too, I uploaded 5 new horses in the window that are all group1 winners or multiple group1 places in the league now and every one of them was bred from mares that would usually be scrapped as they were awful in the CK. The one thing these mares all had in common was that my list of game stallions I keep (see below), that all took my lines on by a noticeable margin, each of these nothing looking mares had a good mix of a lot of these in their breeding. The Mares are for me, the most important part of the breeding. Finding the super game stallion is vital, but it will always be there or come along every 10 seasons or so, but if you can't get these mares to them, with all these past stallions in their lines, it will slow right down in my experience. As these are the mares which are carrying the traits you need in the background to keep adding.

saigon
comply which
lidar somain
Vivarini
Border station
Cannaghmore boy
splendent shifting
horsely valarian

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am
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Post Re: League domination
My point for above is, if I was giving new trainers advice, it would be to make sure you're keeping mares that carry different traits in their lines, even if they don't show anything themselves. Don't just concentrate on closing your eyes an hoping to hit a super stallion. Make a note of every game stallion that changes your trials, and understand why it changed your trials (what it added trait wise) and use that with the mares you're getting from them.

This game is far less about luck than any SO I've ever played before, the breeding is far more in depth than SO6 for sure, and takes a lot more skill to get solid lines going, but it just takes time to study why you're using the horses you use to breed, not just always sending the same horses to the best stallions

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:37 am
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Post Re: League domination
I guess some had more game time and found those great game stallions along the way at the very beginning. I still believe the game is based on time and effort, even more so with the this new breeding engine.

You did mention in the previews Josh that this game is all about luck! I strongly disagree with that comment. It's definitely more about skill and finding that baseline breeding program to work from at the start and then advancing those lines to the next level every generation cycle. You don't need to find those game breed stallions to find improvements. Look at your mares.

I've been a multiple champion of the NH league and never once have I used the TFF files to better my lines. This game is based on breeding and breeding alone.

S07 and the depth of the breeding engine is on another level to previous versions of the game. You really have to study what your breeding lines are and also game stallions if you want to start fresh lines. Check replays and times, if you do your homework it can benefit in adding even better CK horses in your trails.

People go on about stallions. Broodmares are equally important if not more so in this game. They can elevate a line more than what the stallion can do. So instead of paying attention to stallions focus a little more on your mares, trust me it pays dividend.

I know quite a few who have made giant strides in both Jumps and Flat. I too have improved over every distance from what i'm seeing in my trails. But again i'm sure everyone else as also.

I've also branched out from my original game (they wore very rushed to get a full squad together at the time) and gone back to horses i know now are league quality and i didn't get the opportunity to breed with them as much.

Let's just say i have 6 games going right now :roll:


Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:41 am
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Post Re: League domination
kniesh wrote:
My point for above is, if I was giving new trainers advice, it would be to make sure you're keeping mares that carry different traits in their lines, even if they don't show anything themselves. Don't just concentrate on closing your eyes an hoping to hit a super stallion. Make a note of every game stallion that changes your trials, and understand why it changed your trials (what it added trait wise) and use that with the mares you're getting from them.

This game is far less about luck than any SO I've ever played before, the breeding is far more in depth than SO6 for sure, and takes a lot more skill to get solid lines going, but it just takes time to study why you're using the horses you use to breed, not just always sending the same horses to the best stallions


Couldn't agree more Vinny. Mares are so so important.


Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:51 am
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Post Re: League domination
Now I never said I don’t pay attention to the mares, I just see the stations as being more important, no matter how great the mare, you are at best going to get 15 foals out of one, I can do double that a season with a stallion, and a few of those funnily enough will be mares.

Belladona was a horse produced from the mare side and it is possible the same is true for the ‘Hooded Claw’ though there are few style similarities.

I also wholly agree with having a mixed stock, whilst for the most part my stud is full of successful trial horses there are always around 10 who are there for other reasons, many of whom produced some stars, same is true if my breeding mares who I constantly recycle and refresh often with game stock which I like for one reason or another. And I never inbreed so you can assume with my NH scale I have a lot of variety.

I just don’t see any of that as being a skill as such, it is just common sense or at best applied learning or logic. The luck element which is huge is what happens next. 18 times I covered the mare who produced Belladona, being certain she was the key, I got one horse worth the effort, I covered the failed offspring and covered Belladona herself at least another 15 times, so that’s maybe 200+ odd horses within one generation for one horse of G1 standard, multiply those numbers by another generation and at two gens back I get a St leger winner. And I won’t bore you with the NH breeding as the scale dwarfs anything I do on the flat, so that’s luck either good or bad. Just as it is luck that the most recent NH Uber horse to arrive produces decent looking 2m and 2.4m chasers. Bad luck for me that as I hardly need any more :) And bad luck that the 2m hurdle version produces utter tosh.

The one thing that probably helps both of you and supports my theory is your running at least 4-6 games each, that’s a great way to increase the chances that luck with strike in your breeding.


Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:16 am
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Post Re: League domination
Just got a perfect example of my mares theory after typing those, I've just finished my trialling and deleted all the colts that were no good. Before deleting any of the mares that never scored any points I go through their breeding first. I just came across this one, which shows my point perfectly, I'd bet that this mare will produce when I breed her with Hefei Delta, as the one super colt she's missing from her lines is Lidar Somain, an he's the one who added all the finishing pace you see in my sprinters in the league, Hefei Delta, Xinyi Player and Xinyi Nightngale, almost invariably the strongest finishing horses in the race, and it all came from Lidar Somain, that's the trait he added, massive top speed. given this mare has every other good game stallion that added something, i'm convinced she'll produce once i add that top speed to it.

Super stallions
saigon
comply which
lidar somain
Vivarini
Border station
Cannaghmore boy
splendent shifting
horsely valarian

Image

Image

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:27 am
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Post Re: League domination
Githyanki wrote:
Now I never said I don’t pay attention to the mares, I just see the stations as being more important, no matter how great the mare, you are at best going to get 15 foals out of one, I can do double that a season with a stallion, and a few of those funnily enough will be mares.

Belladona was a horse produced from the mare side and it is possible the same is true for the ‘Hooded Claw’ though there are few style similarities.

I also wholly agree with having a mixed stock, whilst for the most part my stud is full of successful trial horses there are always around 10 who are there for other reasons, many of whom produced some stars, same is true if my breeding mares who I constantly recycle and refresh often with game stock which I like for one reason or another. And I never inbreed so you can assume with my NH scale I have a lot of variety.

I just don’t see any of that as being a skill as such, it is just common sense or at best applied learning or logic. The luck element which is huge is what happens next. 18 times I covered the mare who produced Belladona, being certain she was the key, I got one horse worth the effort, I covered the failed offspring and covered Belladona herself at least another 15 times, so that’s maybe 200+ odd horses within one generation for one horse of G1 standard, multiply those numbers by another generation and at two gens back I get a St leger winner. And I won’t bore you with the NH breeding as the scale dwarfs anything I do on the flat, so that’s luck either good or bad. Just as it is luck that the most recent NH Uber horse to arrive produces decent looking 2m and 2.4m chasers. Bad luck for me that as I hardly need any more :) And bad luck that the 2m hurdle version produces utter tosh.

The one thing that probably helps both of you and supports my theory is your running at least 4-6 games each, that’s a great way to increase the chances that luck with strike in your breeding.



These colts an super stallions are only such because they are adding a trait to your lines that isn't already strong within your breeding though. The first one early on is maybe luck, but making a note of why he improved your lines is vital. What he added. Then the later into the breeding you get, the less likely you will be to find one of these stallions, as you are adding more an more traits. So the skill is making sure the stallions you are looking for are adding the traits you're missing, this in't luck after you are multiple stallions in. They become more scarce, not because there are less of them, but because your horses need less traits. The mares then become much more important as carriers of the traits you already have. 'incubators' if you will till you find a game stallion to add something new. Slowing down an looking at your breeding lines constantly and understanding them is a skill, it's not luck. Those game stallions aren't improving all your horses because they would have been superstars in the CK, its because they have something in their running style that you were lacking in yours, and also have the hidden CK trait. Identifying that and having the mares ready to breed with it isn't luck, it's a skill.

I understand sorry that you obviously understand the mares etc. My point is that there's been a few posts now who keep saying it's all about the stallions. I'm looking at it from a newbie point of view, and they may just end up thinking it doesn't matter what you breed with them, just throw a load of mares at game stallions an I'll end up with good horses. I'm just rying to point out, I don't think it's about how many seasons you play now, or the speed you play them, if you concentrate an pinpoint exactly what you want, by slowing down on the breeding side and taking a,look, you will advance a lot more.

All I changed was how I decided to place my mares to breed and what ones I'm keeping, rather than just keeping the good CK ones. My week 5 uploads are group1 horses compared to my week 1 uploads which besides 2 or 3 couldn't win in low handicaps. All I done was change what I've said above. Spend 15-20 mins at the delete point after trials, or the start of every season an place your incubator mares better

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 am
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Post Re: League domination
I have improved everything. Breeding and trilaing are both ultra important as always and you have to really look at small details. You really have to concentrate not to lose lines, and improve agility and jumping and other factors which you need to watch races in game and trials to notice

Anyway both my flat and jumps are stronger. Just the one game still and about 14 or seasons further on. I have good horses in the barn so expecing more improvement.

Although time is limted I will shift my stables on a bit further. Also started to improve my 3yos which took a lot of effort.

If people think it is just luck, well that is opionion and they will still be waiting for that luck to come. Not many people would have bred form the horses I did, but I went into great detail to find them and have got the rewards.

So Josh are you saying the only reason you lost your title is because of luck. Because that is what is sounds like


Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:56 am
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Post Re: League domination
The one thing that probably helps both of you and supports my theory is your running at least 4-6 games each, that’s a great way to increase the chances that luck with strike in your breeding.[/quote]

Not sure this applies to me, I do have 6-7 games but I only use each game for one distance. I only get sprinters from my sprint game, so if a 1m4 supercolt came along I'd ignore it completely. Same with my middle distance game, if a superstar sprinter came along I wouldn't be using it. The only reason I do split my games like this is to concentrate fully on the breeding for each distance more intensely. I'm probably missing those stallions you talk about all the time by doing it this way, and my lines only improved when I did it this way. I'd say it supports my theory more tbh that it isn't luck as I'm ignoring a lot of those horses

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:57 am
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Post Re: League domination
No I do not think I lost the title due to luck, that would be disingenuous to your efforts Leon, but of the two factors I mention time and luck, I tend to view my undoing being about time, and to a lesser degree the game variants I play.

And there is nothing written here that I do not do, I spend hours on my pairing and lineages, hours watching races I do not even have horses in to find a game line I want to follow and then looking at that line past and present just as I spend hours sorting through both my stud and mares to refine what I am trying to achieve, and have horses in the barn to try and develop something different, my large build chasers for example. But that’s all just good sense too me, you can call it skill if you like, but the outcome of those efforts is still luck.

I have no control over whether the foals inherit the traits or get a 30% bust potential (though there are patterns as to when that happens). But since the word luck is clearly offensive to some of you, we can call it probability instead, but to my mind it is like saying you have skill when throwing dice, you can maybe increase the probability of a positive outcome but you cannot control it so it is not entirely based on skill.

As a perfect example since I am trialling as we speak, I have new 2.4m chaser from extended chase lineage going back to league G1 winners, in game it was a multi G1 winning chaser, but at trial it presently sits on top of my 2.4m hurdles, that’s not skill, and if not luck then what is it?

You can influence some of the outcomes but with so much you cannot see, bars and those invisible stats so apparent on the legends to call it entirely a skill is for my mind a nonsense.

We may just have to agree to disagree :)


Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:23 pm
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Post Re: League domination
And there is nothing written here that I do not do, I spend hours on my pairing and lineages, hours watching races I do not even have horses in to find a game line I want to follow and then looking at that line past and present just as I spend hours sorting through both my stud and mares to refine what I am trying to achieve, and have horses in the barn to try and develop something different, my large build chasers for example. But that’s all just good sense too me, you can call it skill if you like, but the outcome of those efforts is still luck.

I agree and always knew you done all this given how well you've done for a long time. I've not put anything in this post an thought I was teaching you anything, your breeding is way beyond mine I've no doubt about that. My reason for posting was that if you just read the first few posts on this thread, and a couple of others, as a new trainer you'd think that if you got that one good stallion that's it, you're set. I was trying to point out that all the other stuff the likes of you, Leon, and Paul, and others do is just as important, if not even more so. What happens if new trainers just see a few posts saying that. they then go away an get a couple of good horses off that horse. They continually breed from it then wonder why it just halts and they stop improving. They get frustrated and end up quitting. I know because I've done that myself. I'm just trying to help new trainers understand there's a lot more in the finer details than throwing darts, but sometimes that hasn't come across in posts on here.

I have no control over whether the foals inherit the traits or get a 30% bust potential (though there are patterns as to when that happens). But since the word luck is clearly offensive to some of you, we can call it probability instead, but to my mind it is like saying you have skill when throwing dice, you can maybe increase the probability of a positive outcome but you cannot control it so it is not entirely based on skill.

Probability is exactly the word that should be used, not luck. I'd personally compare it to poker rather than dice. Dice is still luck based on the odds you're given. Poker you can add manipulation, tweak small things, an add outside factors that contribute. But ultimately you continue to do the right things (probability wise) and you will win. It's not about luck, it's manipulating the odds to put them in your favour by continuing to do the right things.

As a perfect example since I am trialling as we speak, I have new 2.4m chaser from extended chase lineage going back to league G1 winners, in game it was a multi G1 winning chaser, but at trial it presently sits on top of my 2.4m hurdles, that’s not skill, and if not luck then what is it?

You've done all the right things haven't you? But got a slightly different outcome to expected, but still the outcome is a positive one. It's not like you've bred 2 Grand National horses and got a 5f sprinter. Getting a hurdler instead of a chaser is definitely within the realms of probability surely?

You can influence some of the outcomes but with so much you cannot see, bars and those invisible stats so apparent on the legends to call it entirely a skill is for my mind a nonsense.

No one has said it's entirely skill, it's about manipulating probabilities, after working out what those probabilities are. it's a lot more skill than luck n the sense that Poker is surely?

We may just have to agree to disagree :)[/quote]

I'm not trying to come across as an idiot just looking to disagree all the time either sorry. I initially replied just to try an stop new trainers thinking it was all luck an amount of game play.

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Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:09 pm
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