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 New Handicap Rule 

!0 Point Reduction for Pull Ups
Poll ended at Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:45 pm
Yes 80%  80%  [ 8 ]
No 20%  20%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 10

 New Handicap Rule 
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Post New Handicap Rule
I am planning next season to adjust the handicap Ratings on Pulled Up Horses after its first run if it Pulls up on Debut it will get the standard 110. At the moment Pulled Up horses are treated like fallers and don't get adjusted. The weight it carry's around might be a reason it gets pulled up so I would think a 10 point reduction in rating would be the way forward for next season.

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Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:45 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
Top idea … although it may be an idea to add the caveat 'Not applicable in G1 races' or it could get abused.

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Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
Sadly if the game worked properly and pulled up horses that were getting tailed off or getting tired then fair enough but the game is very random ( mostly likely pick on hold up horses) and that's why I don't think its a good idea.

I think if a horse is tailed off or getting tailed off then perhaps that would be the right think to do , but Gray u would have to make that judgement. I don't think u could do it for a horse that is in the pack and just pulling up .


I've just watched my Fidway get pulled up , I think its a great idea :lol: :lol:


Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:42 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
Assume this is NH only?


Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:47 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
And what the issue this seeks to fix? Given the utterly random nature of pull ups that could be grossly unfair to a trainer who if not nobbled by the race kit may land in the 70-90 bracket otherwise for the next weeks racing, and if really a 70-90 rated horse will take likely 2/3 more runs to get back down to a true handicap?


Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:52 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
It will help horses that are high in the handicaps if your horses is say 148 and its runs in a Handicap and pulls up it stays 148 so your horse will not drop in the weights so it must run again off that rating being a top weight held up in a Race I think doesn't help your chances maybe I will look at future 3mile plus races and note what horses and weights carried are pulling up. This is Handicap Races I am talking about not group Races/Novice etc.

Gray

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Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:39 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
This would be a little bit of work but it may pay to track all the hunt horses that get pulled up this league season. See if there is a pattern at all or if some knowledge can come from it.
Although I think horses getting pulled up is quite random - some horses do seem susceptible to it. I can only go by my stable which is quite weak but in general most of my horses run on an even pace and I do not give them any instructions when exporting into the ck.

I also wonder if the game deems a runner/s too weak for the class of race?
A runner who is quite good but the kit deems it too high in the weights?
Hits a few fences and decides it is injured?

There must be a reason/pattern - we don't see horses leading and getting pulled up. Pulled up horses are generally running in the last third of the pack. Does it only happen to hold up horses or does it happen to horses that get caught out of position for too long?

I am not sure dropping a horses weight after pulling up is the answer at this stage.


Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:20 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
so so hard to answer if you are a lower tier trainer and your horse pulls up
you are killed by a 110 rating

if you are a top tier trainer and your gold cup horse pulls up (this has happend)
then the rating is too low

I know i aim my horses at the best races for a couple of weeks then the poor ones
get aimed at handicaps

NOT AN EASY ANSWER

I went for yes but was tough

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Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:41 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
The vote so far is a "Yes", so is there any reason you could not apply this starting in week 4 this season. I know a few horses in the first 3 weeks will have missed out but does that matter.

Just one thing about reduing the weight from say 110 by 10 points . When I am running handicap races the first thing I do is look at the weight a horse is carrying. If I see a horse is carrying a weight of 100, I immediately think the horse has never run or it has the wrong weight. Could you perhaps reduce the weight by say 9 or 11 so that no horse is weighted at 100. One pound is not going to make a significant difference.


Gray you are only thinking about handicap races but if I have a horse who wins in week 1 or 2 and gets a high handicap, the horse is probably weighted too high for handicap races so it will be entered into group races. What happens if I have a 150 rated horse with form like F,1,P,P and the last two races are group races. If you think a horse is carrying too much weight in a handicap, surely the same logic must apply, the horse is carrying too much weight in a group race as well. I know, group races horses tend to run off more equal weights.

Does this not imply that maybe it is not the weight a horse is carrying but more to do with the horses running style or it is just the ideosyncrasy of the racekit.


Last edited by Wannabe on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
You cant have it all if anyones horse is successful early then you should get a high handicap
mark these maidens are G1 races its just that they are called maidens if you get a high mark
its all about horse management maybe even avoiding handicaps the more success you have the
more restricted you get thats the price for success.

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Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:16 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
I am looking at Handicaps at the moment because it can Help all High and Mid and low tier Trainers if your horse is 150 a drop 10 for a pull up gives the horse a chance to drop in weight drop in grade of Handicap and give it more races to enter at the lower end a horse with 106 Rating can then drop low enough to get into Hunter Chases and then that helps the horses on 70 to run in the Handicap Proper and spread the weight at the lower end.


Like I said I am looking at Handicaps in the future I will look at dropping weight in Group Races but not 10 just a couple and if I see everyone in agreement then Week 6 is the bst time to start it.


Gray

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Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
This rule is a good idea if your horse is eligible to run in handicaps but most handicaps have an upper limit of 140. If a horse has one good run and gets a high handicap and is followed by two pull-ups and maybe a couple of Falls in group races, it will always be only eligible for group races and never be given the opportunity to run in a handicap and be given a more realistic rating.

I am not talking about my own horses here but if a miid-tier trainers horse has a good run in a week 1 maiden his horse will be punished for the rest of the season. Is a horse with form 1, F, P, P, F really a group rated horse and worth a 150 rating because the first two races were maidens and since the horse is not eligible for handicaps, the last 3 races are all group races.


Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:14 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
We do have G2H and G3H races and some 160 Handicaps I think this week the elite hurdle is one that comes to mind and after 5th places even some 5th places if its a small race I do drop the ratings maybe some trainers should send them to these races instead of a Group race but that comes down to trainer management Jim.

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Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 am
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
I haven't voted. I don't have a problem with the yes vote - what I wonder is what is the reason for a horse to pull up? If we knew 100% it was because of weight or rating then cool but I am not sure dropping weight etc is the answer - it may well be something more random than that.


Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:13 pm
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Post Re: New Handicap Rule
NPG319 wrote:
I haven't voted. I don't have a problem with the yes vote - what I wonder is what is the reason for a horse to pull up? If we knew 100% it was because of weight or rating then cool but I am not sure dropping weight etc is the answer - it may well be something more random than that.



I am also not sure weight is the problem. I have seen horses with almost bottom weight get pulled-up.

If a horse is having a bad CK day and is running at the back of the pack it is a candidate for a pull-up. Over the various seasons of SO6 I have seen some of the better trainers horses running at the back of the field get pulled-up but then in the next race they run in the middle of the pack under similiar weights and don't get pulled-up.

All my horses are even paced horses which tends to make them run in a closely knit pack and I know from my own trial races almost every long distance horse I uploaded to the league was pulled-up at least once and this had nothing to do with weight as they were all carrying the same weight. It was just how they performed in the CK in that particular race.


On the other hand, some horses are just outclassed in a race and will always be back markers even under bottom weight.


Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:05 am
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