View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:28 pm



Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Flat schedule debate post 
Author Message
Group 1 winner

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am
Posts: 2497
Location: South Australia
Post Flat schedule debate post
I need to make this as quick as possible.....but that probably wont happen. This may be long, hopefully not but please bear with me and if needed, read a bit and think about it and then read some more.

Gray, the changes I made were conservative and within what was in the schedule - through lack of communication on both our parts I wasn't too sure what I could or couldn't do as at the time it seemed like you had knocked the idea of us making any changes on the head and then all of a sudden the schedule appeared in our emails. The small changes I made for Chester you weren't so keen on. I had (and have) no intention of touching any Group races except for those that I put forward the season before.
What I would have liked to have done was drop a lot of the minor English tracks and races and replaced them with minor races and tracks from all around the world from tracks that are in the stock game. You have done this to a small extent already but I would have opened it up more. I would have also dropped some AW meetings as well that weren't part of any of your qualifying races.

My two flat league suggestion should be thought about and debated - the idea is that it is NOT an us and them mentality - it's a realism of what happens in the League at the moment and finding a workable solution. There would be no need for a League A trainer to have horses in League B because there should be 100 and 110 rated races in both Leagues to cater for weaker horses - maybe for both leagues the lowest handicap rating could be 75 or 80. If I win the Ascot Gold Cup in League B - we all know my horse, if it ran in the League A Ascot Gold Cup would finish 15 lengths off the winner BUT I or any other League B trainer has a chance of winning it in our division and there is a fair chance that the new trainers who come along and then leave would actually stick around because in League B their horses are being competitive and the effort needed to improve to be a G1 winner is minor compared to what it is now where you need a different mindset and a complete change of game play and I think I am safe to say that for a lot of players - that's just to much like hard work than fun.
As I have mentioned before - the more players that stick around, the more volunteers we potentially get.


In saying all that - I think the flat schedule is ok at the moment - there is still some minor tinkering I'd like to do for next season. How successful my changes for this season are will be in the pudding at the end of the season. But for the few weeks it's been in operation it seems alright but that is my thoughts and a more accurate account of what I have done will have to come from the other lower tier trainers.

OTHER IDEAS

We could delete 0-110 rated races and turn them into Listed OR we add 0-120 handicap races. Personally, adding 0-120 races means something has to go to make room and at the moment the flat schedule is maxed out and I'm not in favour of it as what get's dropped will anger a chunk of the community. I would be more in favour of deleting 0-110 races and having more Listed or more G3's from other countries or a mix of both - I could check to see if in Australia we have any G2 or G3 handicaps OR we can just make some names up - 'The Starters Orders G3hcp' over 12f as an example.

Do we drop some G2 and G3 races and replace them with more Aussie G1 handicaps? (I'm not sure any other country does G1hcps) I know my horses are more competitive when i have entered a few G1hcps. I don't expect a win but I'll take a 5th any day of the week.

I think some easier ideas to implement would be an expansion of double entry races as we know this has proven successful. I like it with the hunt as what has already happened - my horse falls or gets pulled up but I still have a horse in the race - it also gives me a chance (as a lower rated trainer) to go in with one horse near top weight and another horse that is lower in the weights - almost like hedging my bets. I think we need at the very least to make almost all races double entry. This move opens up chances to win appropriate races and gives all trainers a chance to enter all or most of their stable.

Personally I'd go with a two league flat season and double entries on all races in both leagues. This way it gives everyone a chance to win a Group race and it gives every trainer a chance to win more races and to enter all or most of their stable. It just means that we have to re-think how the league will work. Basically at the start of the season in both leagues, everyone starts off as a G1 trainer. As the season progresses in League A your weaker horses find their way into Listed or 0-110 races. In League B it is the same except that how it is at the moment a new trainer starts off thinking they can win a G1 race but by week 4 they realise the only race that is within reach is a 0-70 race but in League B that new trainer thinks they can win a G1 race at the start of the season but by week 4 they realise that their horse can only win a Listed or G3 or a 0-110. A Listed or 0-110 sounds and feels much better than 0-70 and no hope. Winning a 0-110 in League B, the new trainer thinks 'with just a bit more effort in breeding I can win a G3 or maybe a G1' It's a basic psychological thing that I think will help people stick around.

It also gives a League B trainer the option of stepping up into League A if they need more of a challenge.

JIM - have a week off if you need and come back but at the very least enter your horses for this week. No one is targeting you or any top trainer but the reality is we need to keep bantering around ideas so everyone get a shot at Group races without cheapening any trainers who have done the hard yards to be a G1 trainer. In recent months you have been quite supportive of my ideas about low rated Cup races and I have really appreciated that support. What we need is more ideas and more debate and for everyone to leave their emotions at the door and save them for what goes on in our real lives outside of Starters Orders.

Doug.


Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:35 am
Profile
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:56 pm
Posts: 5650
Location: uk
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
This is just my Opinion I don't like the Idea of two Flat leagues Doug it just seems you are trying to keep the Top Trainers in 1 League and Low rated Trainers in another also I don't like the Idea of getting rid of 110 Handicaps I am or was a middle tier Trainer with the Flat more lower tier this season. If your in the middle my horses would be to high in the lower league Handicaps and not Good enough in the new Created Listed races in the top Tier from the 110 handicaps.


The League should always be run as 1 league catering for all we know we have trainers that go all out at the tff files TOP Trainers then you get the ones that dabbles lightly in it Mid trainer and then the low end Trainer who play the game but uses them but in long term gradually.

I haven't crunched the numbers I let others do that The schedule has always been based on the UK Racing schedule and I would expect 80% of trainers are UK Based but I like to go around the world to get the best races from abroad I don't see the point of getting rid of Minor Courses UK Based to Minor Courses USA Based that seems needless to me and I do add minor Races from abroad if we have a Meeting and room for 1 or 2. The League did have 2 Flat Based Leagues UK Based and USA Based the USA Based League had long gone before I joined the site I expect either lack of interest or too much work.


Gray

_________________
simple in mind but wonderful in young life
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNzbn9 ... idx5pNkHaQ


Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:46 am
Profile YIM WWW
Group 1 winner

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am
Posts: 2497
Location: South Australia
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
Quote:
Doug it just seems you are trying to keep the Top Trainers in 1 League and Low rated Trainers in another


I clearly stated that it is not an 'Us and Them' scenario. It is two leagues working hand in hand - one league for casuals and another for the top guns and if a casual or a newbie wants to fly with the top guns we educate them on how to do it.

This is the only realistic solution if you want low trainers who have no will or want to breed like crazy and transport files left right and centre to be able to win Group races.
It cannot be done with the league as it is. It would be totally unfair to Josh, John or Paul and the other trainers who are at the top if we spoon feed G1s to lower rated trainers. As it is at the moment the only way any trainer can win at Group level is if you totally change how you play the game. It's great if you're like Jango and like to analyse stats and that is what drives him or anyone else or if you have a real burning desire to win G1s and you're happy to go down that track - fantastic but it is quite obvious that there is a lot of us who don't and personally I'm neither here nor there about winning any Group races but there is more chance of keeping new players if they can still win Group races or at least be not far off in a competition where they have a chance of winning with not a lot of effort to change what they are already doing.

Each league race runs for the other so there is no conflict of interest which can only be a plus. Another plus is that the race runners in this scenario get a chance to watch their horses run on race day and not know the result. If some time is put into the new schedule there will hopefully be no more flat races as there is now so there is no extra work for anyone.

As I said - I think the schedule how it is at the moment is about right - we will never please everyone all the time but at the moment we are pleasing most of the people most of the time. And I am happy enough to stick to what is happening in the league right now but if you want to think outside the box at a new scenario that gives everyone a chance at winning Group races without excluding or discriminating against other trainers then you and everyone else should just sit back and chew over what I am proposing.


The other stuff about dropping 0-110 races or adding 0-120 races is for debate in the current format and to be honest with you all I am in favour of neither but if it goes to a vote to make one of those two changes I will roll with it because the reality is - it doesn't impact on how I play in the league.

Doug


Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:38 am
Profile
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm
Posts: 15142
Location: Republic of Ireland
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
all i can say i was a bottom trainer got the bug for the league and
worked ridiculously hard to reach the top putting ridiculous amounts of time
into reaching the top. an unhealthy amount of time.


at the end of the day people can come into the league with only a handful of
game seasons under there belts and they have the chance to win races

How many seasons goes into producing an Epsom derby winner thousands upon thousands

how much time does that take = FOREVER

as anyone would know im all for a level league but please respect those who are at the top
have literally made this game their lives and thats no joke

_________________
Website http://www.aidanobrienfansite.com
Email pjrhodes1122@gmail.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/aobrienfansite


Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm
Profile WWW
Group 1 winner

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am
Posts: 2497
Location: South Australia
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
I understand that Paul and I am putting forward a suggestion that is not undermining anyone.

All I am saying is I am happy with the league as it is - I think complaining about the schedule now is pointless, some weeks it suits the top gun trainers and some weeks it suits the lower trainers - I am pretty certain it levels it self out over 13 weeks. I also think the flat schedule has never been more balanced that what it is now - it gives everyone a chance to get a win. I think it shows in the fact a new and a returning trainer have score wins by week 5. And we have already lost two new trainers which is a pity.

My suggestion is outside the box but I think it's a reasonable suggestion that will include everyone and gives everyone an even chance of winning a Group race without cheapening anyone's efforts that they have put into the game - A Casual League and a Top Gun League. I know I am up against it because most people hate change.


As I said with the debate about 0-110 and 0-120 races - I have no standing with it - just some thoughts but I'm not going to bat for them. I think the middle is ok although both Martin and Gray agree about some race at Ascot that could have a change of rating - but that is a change Gray has to make - I am not going to touch Ascot.


Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:05 pm
Profile
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:56 pm
Posts: 5650
Location: uk
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
Just had a quick look at Week 6 I will post and see what you Guys Think.

Ascot Week Changes 40 Races

Staying Races

Gold Cup 2m 4f Group 1 No Change
Queen Alexandra 2m 5f Conditions Stakes To O-120 Handicap
Ascot Stakes 0-80

1m 4f

Ribbledale Stake Group 2 3yo Fillies To Open 3UP 0-120
King George V Handicap 3UP Open 0-100 to 0-70
King Edward VII Stakes Group 2 Colts To Open 3yo only
Hardwicke Stakes Group 2 4UP No Change
Belmont Stakes Group 1 3yo Open No Change


1Mile 2f Races

Prince Of Wales 1m 2f 4UP Group 1 No Change
Tercentenary Stakes 1m 2f 3YO Group 3 To 3UP 0-120
Wolferton Handicap 1m 2f 4UP 0-100 To 3UP 8-80

Mile 3UP Races

1M Queen Anne Stakes Group 1 4UP Open
1M St James Palace Stakes Group 1 (Colts Only) No Change
1M Royal Hunt Cup 0-110 No Change
1M Brittania Stakes 0-90 to 0-70
1M Coronation Stakes Group 1 ( Fillies Only ) No Change
7F Jersey Stakes Group 3 Open to 0-110
7F Buckingham Palace Stakes 3UP 0-80 T0 0-70


Add two Races

5f 3UP 0-70
5F 3UP 0-100


Gray

_________________
simple in mind but wonderful in young life
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNzbn9 ... idx5pNkHaQ


Last edited by simpleminds on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:02 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Group 1 winner

Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:16 pm
Posts: 2297
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
I do not like the idea of two leagues period.

But I do like the suggestion of making schedule changes to create more handicap races out of the listed type races, which feels to me to have the potential of achieving the same end, more competitive races for all.


Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:08 pm
Profile
Group 1 winner

Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:16 pm
Posts: 2297
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
Those changes seem ok to me, but I thought the point of making them 120 handicaps was to keep the top tier in, but to allow others to enter gaining weight. 110 knocks out a lot of the cream.


Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:11 pm
Profile
Group 2 winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:29 am
Posts: 757
Location: Warwickshire
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
Said I wasn't contributing anymore but since people now seem to be getting on board … yes they do need to be 120 to keep the top horses in

_________________
Websites: https://martinleedham.wordpress.com/ - Music Reviews and The (not so) Daily Racing Page
https://rateyourmusic.com/~MartinLeedham

e-mail: martinleedham@yahoo.co.uk


Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:11 am
Profile WWW
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm
Posts: 15142
Location: Republic of Ireland
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
They seem fair changes to me

_________________
Website http://www.aidanobrienfansite.com
Email pjrhodes1122@gmail.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/aobrienfansite


Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:48 am
Profile WWW
Group 1 winner

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am
Posts: 2497
Location: South Australia
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
I'll trust your judgement Gray but I think maybe take Martin's and Josh's thoughts onboard about raising some of those 110 races to 120 and let's see how it pans out.


Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:47 am
Profile
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:56 pm
Posts: 5650
Location: uk
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
Changes Made to two races showing 120.

Gray

_________________
simple in mind but wonderful in young life
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNzbn9 ... idx5pNkHaQ


Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:36 am
Profile YIM WWW
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm
Posts: 15142
Location: Republic of Ireland
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
I take these changes are happening next season?

notice the Jersey is getting a change if you look at this season race look how many newcomers
are in that races 4 out of 7 are new comers.

think care needs to be taken as you will drastically cut peoples chances of running newcomers

_________________
Website http://www.aidanobrienfansite.com
Email pjrhodes1122@gmail.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/aobrienfansite


Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:42 am
Profile WWW
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:56 pm
Posts: 5650
Location: uk
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
I take these changes are happening next season?

notice the Jersey is getting a change if you look at this season race look how many newcomers
are in that races 4 out of 7 are new comers.

think care needs to be taken as you will drastically cut peoples chances of running newcomers



They can run them in the Mile Group Races Paul if Group 1 didn't allow Debutants like last season I would agree with you Paul.

_________________
simple in mind but wonderful in young life
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNzbn9 ... idx5pNkHaQ


Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:59 am
Profile YIM WWW
Group 1 winner
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm
Posts: 15142
Location: Republic of Ireland
Post Re: Flat schedule debate post
simpleminds wrote:
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
I take these changes are happening next season?

notice the Jersey is getting a change if you look at this season race look how many newcomers
are in that races 4 out of 7 are new comers.

think care needs to be taken as you will drastically cut peoples chances of running newcomers



They can run them in the Mile Group Races Paul if Group 1 didn't allow Debutants like last season I would agree with you Paul.



I'm not thinking of myself but for instance I'm a bottom 5 trainer who has to enter his newcomer in a G1
their horse will surly be penalized for running in G1 company and their newcomer may have an unworkable mark
from there on thus ruining the chance of the horse to succeed which this debate seems to be entirely about.

It's just impossible to please everyone and its doing my head in even thinking about it I'm sure as always
you guys will do whats best by the league.

_________________
Website http://www.aidanobrienfansite.com
Email pjrhodes1122@gmail.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/aobrienfansite


Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:06 am
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.