I have one suggestion to make.

Bearing in mind that 2 yr old only races in CK appear to be limited in some way as opposed to when you run them as 2,3 year old races where the times are significantly faster could we have 2 year old races run with only 2 year olds but set to 2,3 in CK?

Just a thought. Otherwise 2 year old races are IMO a bit of a crap shoot.

Obviously proposal B!

After looking at the schedule I will not have 20 in my stable I already know my horses are seconds behind ok maybe that a bit far fetched lol but are way of the times I see on the CK times i'm even long way behind leons time over the 2m jumps I wont have have any horses good enough even for listed races.

I can see Handicaps in the schedule but look like the main ones I don't really see .many if any minor low rated ones not enough anyway to have a big stable especially in the first half of the season I might pop in some Gamebred horses for those races stated I think I saw three so that's it for me a Stable of 3 lol.

I think 2 year old races should be run as 2 year old races. Pace is something you have to deal with in the league. If you constantly trialled with pace makers it may be worth trialling without to try mirror the league.

Gray with regards to times in NH. I have found they have little bearing on results, so don't worry about times. Good jumping and consistency are the key. With the league split up into novices etc there will be loads of opportunities to win races in NH.

I do think there needs to be some more low level handicap races in the flat schedule. We would want to keep the interest of the new trainers. Maybe an extra 2 or 3 low level handicaps per race day. I think this is quite important.

It's not a lack of pace. I run my two year olds as is without pace makers. The difference between them running as two year olds where they are limited in some way compared to running them as 2,3 is startling.

Here's the difference at 5f (where pacemakers aren't an issue either way). Run as 2 year old You're hard pressed to get under 59.7 and even then that's a rare run. Run as 2,3 and I beat 59.7 every time with a differential as much as 0.4s. I have horses that are several generations older that run 59.7 when run as a 2 year old race but when run as a 2,3 race don't break 59.6. Running with the race set to 2 yrs old is simply making it a crap shoot.

Run it however but I would prefer to see better horses win appropriately.

No worries leon I know by my trialing over the jumps(Never use a pace Maker) times are very varied I will have a full team for the jumps of thirty its the best league IMO I love the jumps and I would get a greater thrill of have a a handicap win on the jumps than having any group winner on the flat

I trial my horse under 2 year old only and open conditions and in general the same horses win so not sure why its a crap shoot. DO you mean that you get a lottery of results or just that your times are quicker. If its just times then this is of no importance in the league Its not about going quicker its about consistency. If the same horse is winning both races there should be no reason to run the race under different conditions

Hmm.. let's see if I can make this clearer for you as you're missing the point.



So when you run as a 2 year old, both horses can only run around 59.7 at best and either can win. Run both horses in a race where it's 2,3 and the 8th gen horse wins everytime. If you think running as a 2 year old race is better than we'll agree to disagree.

I'm not getting that in my trials, but I only run 2 year old open and 2 year old only trials. I will run some races tonight to check your theory, but going on what you've illustrated I'm sure you correct. My times for the open races are on average 0.5 sec faster so I know there is a difference. But what I'm not getting in my trials is varying results. The same horses tend to win no matter what the conditions.

In my opinion closer times in the league are a good thing as it will mean that more trainers have a chance of winning group races. The more winners from different stables the better in my opinion. So even if your theory is correct. I still feel it should be 2 year old only for 2 year old races. If this means a lottery amongst league trainers for 2 year old glory it makes the races more exciting.

I'm sure with your times in both NH and flat that you will have many winners as it is. And will probably challenge for the title on the flat.

I can understand your point of view. FWIW this isn't about winning/losing. It's more about knowing which horse is best for me . If I really was wanting to dominate I wouldn't be limiting myself to 3 year olds. What I really want to see how I measure up against the best. A good example is at 12f where I am looking forward to running (and I suspect getting a beating) from Doc. Given I won't be running in any 4+ races I don't see how I'm challenging for anything.

It's good to have as many people involved as possible. I'm simply bringing up an area where we go forwards taking all information into account.

i spent ages recently trialing 2yo under ther 2yo conditions and yes
they run quicker in open trials or 2,3yo trials but that is not important

Leon is right consistency is everything

Ck times merely point out who is your quickest
you need to do at least 15 trials per distance with a scoring system to unearth most consistent
this worked for me last year especially with 2yo i know the game has changed a bit but i have stuck to that

PJ you're missing the point. I'm not quibbling about consistency. What I am saying is that my 8th generation horses will consistently beat my 2nd generation horses if run under 2,3 year old. If run under 2 year old only because CK somehow limits their performance the 2nd generation horses can beat the 8th generation horses. See the table above please. Run under 2 year old only both horses run about the same times even though the 8th generation ones are CONSISTENTLY faster when run under 2,3 year old race.

What Andy is trying to say is that his horses are now so good that the ck can't handle them.