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 DAILY DISCUSSION 
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
keithbeaky wrote:
Harbinger was a seriously good horse. A lot of horses can be visually impressive, but until you break down the times of a race you cant see how good they really are. The sections and the overall time in his King George were very, very good.

This year we saw Telescope and Eagle Top look very impressive at Royal Ascot but the sections and overall times weren't anything special. Eagle Top may well turn out to be very good but his King Edward was nowhere near as impressive as it looked because the rest were crawling home in the last two furlongs, due to the frantic pace which had been set. The last two furlongs were slow for a top class race over that distance. Hence why I was all over Taghroodha in this years King George and could not see Eagle Top getting anywhere near her. He probably ran better than I thought he would.

Its all about opinions but beating average horses on the bridle in an average winning time proves nothing. Setting good times, compared to other races on the same card, against proven horses is a proven way to rate horses and always will be. Thats why from time to time Timeform rate horses so highly on one run. Most of the horses they have done that with have sadly not ran again or were injured on their next run. Im not saying they are 100% right but id rather that than a horse winning multiple races whilst at the same time beating nothing getting a high rating.


The problem with judging horses on times at Ascot is it's a new course so all the old times are worthless, u cant judge Grundy's times to Harbinger time. Then there's the stupid watering, do they water don't they water. If u judge ratings on times then only horse that love fast ground will have great ratings because horses that like good/soft ground will never run fast times so their are at a disadvantage, then there's the going description do u believe what they give .I think if timeform base their ratings on times then it's equally stupid. Some races have pacemakers other races don't, the best judge is u eyes. No one will ever convince me that Harbinger was a monster, u cant improve over 10lbs in one race.


Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:42 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
Australia has proven himself without even the derby form 3rd in the Guineas drawn on wrong side
that is serious form he is a proven G1 performer but not an all time great fear he wont get the opportunity now.
it will be off to stud and breeders will flock to him i have never seen a more laid back horse has an exceptional temperament
the likes i have not seen before his temperament is unbreakable he is a lazy so and so. you could put a lion in his box and he
would just yawn at him

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:02 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
PJ you shouldn't let some of these eejit's get a rise out of you, genuinely the people who are knocking the achievements of Australia this season are not proper horse racing fans, they wouldn't know a really top class horse if it came up licked them in the face, turned around and kicked them in the balls. Their minds are totally fixated on the dominance of Ballydoyle/Coolmore and they are entirely blind to the amazing breeding operation they have going in Co Tipperary and how exciting it is to see these beautifully bred thoroughbreds be trained by an absolute genius and a gentleman year after year. Talk to any true racing fan and they'll be able to tell you in a heartbeat just how good Australia is..... talk to any true racing fan and they'll be able to tell you with confidence if they ran the irish champion stakes 10 times, that would be the only occasion Australia would be beaten. I dont doubt The Grey Gatsby is an exceptional racehorse but he only won the race due to jockey error.... its really kind of unbelievable how even the dumbest of racing fans can't see that.

I sometimes think some of the people on here judge real racing achievements, by the achievements of the horses in their starters orders game, anyone who doe's this.......you need a reality check, your game is just fantasy.....see!

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:38 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
I'm sure everyone will agree that Australia is a top-class colt but when his trainer comes out and claims he is the best he has ever trained people, naturally, expect much from the son of Galileo. His Guineas run was very good given he was just behind Kingman, the soon-to-be 'horse of the year' in what was a vintage renewal; his victory at Epsom came against good opposition and he certainly had to work hard for it and he did what he had to do against solid yardsticks Mukhadram and Telescope in the Juddmonte International (please don't be fooled that he was only half-fit); I'm not going to mention his victory in the Irish Derby as that was a pathetic race with the second now being deployed as a pacemaker, which gives you some idea what that form is worth; as for the Irish Champion Stakes even he had have won it would have been workmanlike at best and ultimately that is what sums up Australia - he is very good but there is not the brilliance in his performances that his trainer made us believe would be the case.

Finally, I'm firmly of the belief that Free Eagle will reverse form with Australia at Ascot next month.

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:14 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
I genuinely hope Australia is given the chance to reverse guineas form with Kingman on champions day.

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:31 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
johnny16dar wrote:
I genuinely hope Australia is given the chance to reverse guineas form with Kingman on champions day.


I hope so too, but unfortunately he will only run in the QEII if Kingman doesn't; connections are businessmen and they can't afford another defeat, therefore he is more likely to take on Free Eagle & co over his optimum trip than take a thumping to Kingman over a mile.

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Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:03 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
johnny16dar wrote:
PJ you shouldn't let some of these eejit's get a rise out of you, genuinely the people who are knocking the achievements of Australia this season are not proper horse racing fans, they wouldn't know a really top class horse if it came up licked them in the face, turned around and kicked them in the balls. Their minds are totally fixated on the dominance of Ballydoyle/Coolmore and they are entirely blind to the amazing breeding operation they have going in Co Tipperary and how exciting it is to see these beautifully bred thoroughbreds be trained by an absolute genius and a gentleman year after year. Talk to any true racing fan and they'll be able to tell you in a heartbeat just how good Australia is..... talk to any true racing fan and they'll be able to tell you with confidence if they ran the irish champion stakes 10 times, that would be the only occasion Australia would be beaten. I dont doubt The Grey Gatsby is an exceptional racehorse but he only won the race due to jockey error.... its really kind of unbelievable how even the dumbest of racing fans can't see that.

I sometimes think some of the people on here judge real racing achievements, by the achievements of the horses in their starters orders game, anyone who doe's this.......you need a reality check, your game is just fantasy.....see!



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Last edited by pjrhodes1970 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:12 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
Nasty Nas8 wrote:
johnny16dar wrote:
I genuinely hope Australia is given the chance to reverse guineas form with Kingman on champions day.


I hope so too, but unfortunately he will only run in the QEII if Kingman doesn't; connections are businessmen and they can't afford another defeat, therefore he is more likely to take on Free Eagle & co over his optimum trip than take a thumping to Kingman over a mile.


Anyone would have to be impressed with what Kingman has done since the Guineas
I know 1 of the partners is keen to take him on in QEII if Kingman Goes but Aidan wants the Champion Stakes
And that will be a hot race too

Looking at The ICS again Joey went for Aussie way too early

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Last edited by pjrhodes1970 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:13 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
I'm not an expert but why is Australia not going to the Arc?
His best perfomances were over 12f (Epsom+Irish Derby), plus the field in the arc is balanced, Australia would have a big chance to win it.(Treve underperforming, Sea the moon retired, taghrooda?).
Also from a business point of view, in my opinion even a a third/fourth place in the arc is a bigger accomplishment than winning the Champion Stakes. There is not that much to lose in the Arc compared to the Champion Stakes, particullary with regard to his Stud value, which seems to be the only reason to run tophorses in races anyway nowadays.


Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:41 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
ghostzapper74 wrote:
keithbeaky wrote:
Harbinger was a seriously good horse. A lot of horses can be visually impressive, but until you break down the times of a race you cant see how good they really are. The sections and the overall time in his King George were very, very good.

This year we saw Telescope and Eagle Top look very impressive at Royal Ascot but the sections and overall times weren't anything special. Eagle Top may well turn out to be very good but his King Edward was nowhere near as impressive as it looked because the rest were crawling home in the last two furlongs, due to the frantic pace which had been set. The last two furlongs were slow for a top class race over that distance. Hence why I was all over Taghroodha in this years King George and could not see Eagle Top getting anywhere near her. He probably ran better than I thought he would.

Its all about opinions but beating average horses on the bridle in an average winning time proves nothing. Setting good times, compared to other races on the same card, against proven horses is a proven way to rate horses and always will be. Thats why from time to time Timeform rate horses so highly on one run. Most of the horses they have done that with have sadly not ran again or were injured on their next run. Im not saying they are 100% right but id rather that than a horse winning multiple races whilst at the same time beating nothing getting a high rating.


The problem with judging horses on times at Ascot is it's a new course so all the old times are worthless, u cant judge Grundy's times to Harbinger time. Then there's the stupid watering, do they water don't they water. If u judge ratings on times then only horse that love fast ground will have great ratings because horses that like good/soft ground will never run fast times so their are at a disadvantage, then there's the going description do u believe what they give .I think if timeform base their ratings on times then it's equally stupid. Some races have pacemakers other races don't, the best judge is u eyes. No one will ever convince me that Harbinger was a monster, u cant improve over 10lbs in one race.


Thats why I said the times must be compared to those on the same card. As for pacemakers etc again I said the sections of the whole race are used to judge how good the form is. This is why people who do their own sectionals or speed figures can make a fortune betting.


Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:00 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Australia has proven himself without even the derby form 3rd in the Guineas drawn on wrong side
that is serious form he is a proven G1 performer but not an all time great fear he wont get the opportunity now.
it will be off to stud and breeders will flock to him i have never seen a more laid back horse has an exceptional temperament
the likes i have not seen before his temperament is unbreakable he is a lazy so and so. you could put a lion in his box and he
would just yawn at him


Id love to see the same field line up in the QEII. Night Of Thunder and Australia wouldn't finish within 5 lengths of Kingman. As for the rest add another 5. Kingman was not the horse he is now in the Guineas. Remind me what Night Of Thunder has done since winning that? What races has he won? 3rd in any classic doesn't prove a thing.

Same as the Derby, beat nothing of any note. Kingston Hill might be a G1 horse on soft ground. But I doubt it. He is G2/3

In the Juddmonte Telescope is a good horse but he has not won a G1. His King George run was probably better than the one at York.

Personally I think they have avoided the top horses and will continue to do so.


Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:08 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
pjrhodes1970 wrote:
Nasty Nas8 wrote:
johnny16dar wrote:
I genuinely hope Australia is given the chance to reverse guineas form with Kingman on champions day.


I hope so too, but unfortunately he will only run in the QEII if Kingman doesn't; connections are businessmen and they can't afford another defeat, therefore he is more likely to take on Free Eagle & co over his optimum trip than take a thumping to Kingman over a mile.


Anyone would have to be impressed with what Kingman has done since the Guineas
I know 1 of the partners is keen to take him on in QEII if Kingman Goes but Aidan wants the Champion Stakes
And that will be a hot race too

Looking at The ICS again Joey went for Aussie way too early


Yes that is why Australia got beat. Horses can go wide and still win races. Ok so he did go very wide but it wasn't 4 lengths worth. He got beat because Joey went for everything too far out off a crazy, crazy pace. Ryan Moore is the greatest jockey i've seen, even better than McCoy, and he knew how fast they'd gone. He is one of the few with a brain/clock in his head. You could run the race again with Australia going as wide, but held up a little longer, and he'd probably win.


Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:12 am
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
Looks like Coolmore have got their wish: Australia will now be rerouted to the QEII given he has an incredible amount of speed, oh and Kingman won't be there - you couldn't make it up, could you?!

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Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:42 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
yes sad news that KINGMAN has been retired. Will need ongoing treatment which rules him out of QEII
be a nice future cross for Frankel Mares

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Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:44 pm
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Post Re: DAILY DISCUSSION
Taking the easier option again. But their version is he's a group one winner over the three main distances.


Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:12 pm
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