Think people need to get their heads out there backsides. Gleneagles won on good to yielding winning by 3/4 of a length only his class getting him out of it. Look how that form has worked out terrible. So what chance does he has running over 1m 2f on slow ground against better horses. Its pretty simple to me stop twisting and dont watch flat racing. Why run a horse on slow ground when you know he is going to struggle to win.

As for Golden Horn he's been beat and Frankie is perfect in what he said, he was a little keen and just couldnt use his turn of foot on the slow ground.

As for Time Test he shouldnt have ran either, he's going to run as a 4yo baring injury. The pace he shows and the turn of foot he has he was never going to be able to show that on that ground either.

Horses arent machines and cant be perfect everytime. Aiden O'Brien has looked after Gleneagles, as TRAINER he has the right to chose when he runs or doesnt run not racing fans. John Gosden should have done the same but as he didnt run in the King George and got plenty of stick he's ran here instead.

Totally agree with PJ Rhodes in that last comment

Paul that is what's wrong with UK flat racing, it's not about racing any more. It was not always like that. U don't lose nothing in defeat. AP in the US lost his first race so that means he will get less when he goes to stud, I don't think so. My horse Ghostzapper didn't go unbeaten yet had the highest stud fee for a first time horse and still holds that record. Why because of what he did ON the course.

well put well said Peter

I'm not gunna get into this debate of whether Golden Horn is as good as his rating and hype says he is.

However, I saw a very interesting tweet from here in the US from DRF writer Marcus Hersh. He said, "Arabian Queen beaten 2.25 by Wedding Vow, Wedding Vow beaten 2.75 by Secret Gesture in Beverly D." Secret Gesture was the "winner" of the Beverly D. on Saturday before being taken down by a DQ. Earlier in the day, Storm the Stars won at York, who beat Highland Reel (winner of the Secretariat on Saturday) in the Irish Derby. Storm the Stars in Highland Reel's running lines helped me pick him on Saturday (and vice versa today), but can't believe I missed that... But that's why she was 50/1. She has the ability to go to the Breeders Cup Turf as this was a Win & You're In, but targeting the British Champions Filly & Mare Stakes next.

But no physical excuse for Golden Horn today. Don't blame the ground. If you are truly a great horse, you should be able to win on just about any ground (unless its so soft that you can't get your hoof out of the ground... then I get it).

I think tacky ground has more effect on a horse than soft seems to blunt there turn of foot

The ground wasnt just good to soft. Joseph Obrien said it was very tacky and hard work.

I don't have a problem with them taking Gleneagles out because of the ground - I just don't believe they wanted to run him in the first place, hence why they kept making excuses in the build up. I am in the minority who believe it is a myth that good horses can perform on any ground. Golden Horn is a good horse, a very good horse in fact, and I'm now worried we will never see him, physically, at his very best again because of the race he had this afternoon.

What I can't stand is those who criticized connections for looking after Flintshire only to then applaud those who chose not to run Gleneagles this afternoon. I applaud both connections for looking after their horse instead of worrying about those who may have backed them ante-post.

Right you've mentioned the point about flintshire more than once, everyone gets the point.

I hope so. Personally, horse welfare comes before betting for me, so I thought criticism of Flintshire's connections was unjustified.

Yeah i do, i was behind the decision not to run flintshire, as i have been with Golden Horn and Gleneagles. And in that matter its the same with any horse. If ground doesnt suit dont bother running.

Firstly to clarify my comments on Flintshire yes I am happy to admit that they were harsh and I
am man enough to hold my hands up say to that I got it wrong He was the class horse in the race
and i genuinely thought he could have won that race in any conditions.

Secondly Horse welfare always come first for me its hugely important to me I always state the most
important thing is that they all come home safe that really is the only important thing i am insulted that anyone
would think otherwise I enjoy a bet a very occasional one but for me personally my love for racing has absolutely nothing
to do with betting i put a huge amount of time into what i do.

On my website betting is very very rarely mentioned i sometimes
spend 15 hours a day working on it and it is done for the love of it nothing and i mean nothing to do with betting and again
i am insulted that you would say that about me.

Matt I have found over the past 12 months you have been very confrontational with me
this is done for one reason and one reason alone only to fuel an argument you may have time
for that in your life i certainly dont. Your comment in the 10 to follow showed you in a true light.

I will leave it there I apologize to everyone for this outburst but when my integrity and character is called into question
I have to answer that. as stated above it was only done for one reason to poke a reaction out of me Why i dont know.

I feel so stupid now. I didn't realise you only had a bet every now and then. Good to hear you agree with me that horse welfare is paramount. It's a pity the racing industry focuses so much on the betting part of the sport and not on other more important issues.

3 Questions for people to answer.

First of is there any danger in running that race on soft ground, people keep talking about horses welfare.

Secondly why is it that h'cappers can run ten or more times a season and be fine yet good/very good horses cant seem to run more than 5.

Thirdly why is it that they are now going for the Irish champion with Golden Horn.

My answers.

There is no danger to a horses welfare running on soft ground, apart from getting tired.

Secondly if h'capers can keep coming out often then good horses/sound horses can run more than 5 times a season. They say horses are fitter now than ever so why is it they run less, doesn't make sense.

Finally I think they are only going for the Irish Champion now because they were beat, I think if they had won they would have gone straight to the Arc.

When horses get tired there is more chance of them doing damage by straining muscles etc.... so if a horse is unsuited by soft ground and needs to put more effort in, there is the possibility of lasting effects from the race occurring.

There are very few races high-class horses can run in and they are usually spaced a month or so apart. But it would be nice to see them run more often.

I agree with your answer. Perhaps they feel they have nothing to lose now, especially as he is to retire at the end of the season.

On the ground comment, it isn't just about getting tired. Horses with certain types of actions act better on differing ground... We all know that. The reason trainers are less inclined to run a fast ground horse (I.e. One with a low knee action or 'daisy cutter' action) on soft is that they will actually be putting more strain on their tendons and ligaments, and bones and muscles to pull their feet out of the ground. Hence there is a higher risk of injury and trainers of high profile horses don't risk it.

In the 'olden' days it was believed that doing work on deep ground helped fitten horses up and harden the tendons, (I have actually very recently had a very heated argument with someone about this), but now with new research and better knowledge we know that doing this actually damages the horse and increases the risk of serious injury. Particularly to suspensory ligaments and major tendons, the kind if injuries horses don't come back from.

Slow work (walk for e.g) on deep ground can help to strengthen muscles and tendons whilst reducing impact on an injured joint for example.

The same goes for a slow ground horse on hard going, the high knee action puts more strain on the bones and the muscles and ligaments further up the shoulder and into the pelvis, much more so than running a fast ground horse on soft. The risks are huge and hence you rarely see some NH horses unless the ground is bottomless, you'll often find these have old knee and pelvic injuries as well.

Thus, horses are being run less and less on unsuitable going. I'll stop going on now...!