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 Winx 
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Group 1 winner

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Post Re: Winx
Take the size of Australia - it would take up all of mainland Europe and the British Isles - when you look at it like that then you see why Australia appears to have too many G1s - Imagine Europe was one country and not many countries, in that scenario it would be like saying Europe has too many G1s.
Moonee Valley is not about the short straight it's about winding up from the 600m and sustaining a sprinting burst. In my opinion the average racehorse can't sustain a final 300 to 400m burst - I think the idea of really long straights is over rated - a 400m home straight is ample time to balance up and sustain a finishing burst. In the next few years they will shut down the Valley and redevelop it - build apartment blocks around the back of the straight and put up lighting towers and do a lot of night racing there. It will be the Happy Valley racetrack of Australia.
Handicap racing is a quirk of Australia and it appears for South Africa as well - it's a great concept - great horses that carry big weights and win truly show their heart and class or it's a well weighted horse that wins - they are great for punting.

Winx doesn't have a short burst - she has a really long sprinting finish, that's why she has gone undefeated for so long - she goes past the post flat out.


Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
Take the size of Australia - it would take up all of mainland Europe and the British Isles - when you look at it like that then you see why Australia appears to have too many G1s - Imagine Europe was one country and not many countries, in that scenario it would be like saying Europe has too many G1s.
Moonee Valley is not about the short straight it's about winding up from the 600m and sustaining a sprinting burst. In my opinion the average racehorse can't sustain a final 300 to 400m burst - I think the idea of really long straights is over rated - a 400m home straight is ample time to balance up and sustain a finishing burst. In the next few years they will shut down the Valley and redevelop it - build apartment blocks around the back of the straight and put up lighting towers and do a lot of night racing there. It will be the Happy Valley racetrack of Australia.
Handicap racing is a quirk of Australia and it appears for South Africa as well - it's a great concept - great horses that carry big weights and win truly show their heart and class or it's a well weighted horse that wins - they are great for punting.

Winx doesn't have a short burst - she has a really long sprinting finish, that's why she has gone undefeated for so long - she goes past the post flat out.


Well said NPG.

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Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:29 pm
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Post Re: Winx
WesleyNaude wrote:
I don't think Brits disrespect Australian Sprinters. In fact a lot of Foreign Sprinters run in European sprints on a regular basis. I think Brits don't respect your middle distance and staying horses. This is because your schedule is highly favoured towards sprinters. There is also concern of too many Group 1 races in your country in general. The European racing program as a whole dictates the breeding and not the other way around. The horses that win the Group 1s in Europe are usually the best horses and thus are retired early being lightly raced. There seems to be a fascination in the Southern Hemisphere (South Africa, Australia) with Group 1 Handicaps which means some horses winning group 1s aren't group 1 horses. The tracks in Britain are also more testing, more varied and IMO a more fair test of ability. Long back straights and long home straights means the horses can settle, wind up and accelerate properly which means more horses get into the race. Tracks like Moonee valley favour horses that corner well and have short bursts. There is no hope for a horse four lengths back to make up ground in the home stretch. Not saying Winx has a short burst but the tracks she runs on in Australia don't test for sustained finishes and there are hardly any stretch battles. The tracks in Australia have 1.5F to 2.5F Home Stretch's and in Britain/Europe most home Stretches range From 2F to 3.5F. I always hear people talk about the ground when a European horse loses in a foreign country when IMO the length of the stretch is mainly the problem. For example when Happily ran stone last in the Breeders Cup Juvenile fillies Turf at Del Mar. It wasn't because of poor ability but because there was literally a wall of Horses in front of her with a furlong to go. Another example would be Tepin in the Breeders Cup Mile in 2015 at Keeneland. She beat the Favourite Make believe by 4.5 lengths but it's hard to believe that she was just that superior. She was successful at Ascot winning by 0.5 lengths against a stronger field but I just couldn't see her opening with a gap and winning as easy as she did at Keeneland. I am using an American example as their tracks home stretches are of similiar range to Australian tracks.The second to last thing I want to bring up is the level of competition. The reason European horses are held in such high regard is because they are the ones that travel overseas to other countries and take on the best the world has to offer. These horses that travel are usually the second rate Group 1 winners, Group 2 and Group 3 horses. They have done this on multiple occasions. There is occasionally the top horse that makes the trip I.e Enable For the Breeders Cup Turf. They do extremely well overseas and those races that they compete in are afterthoughts as their main targets are in Europe. This is not a knock on Australian horses, I am just pointing out the reasons as to why Brits and other European might get offended when their horses aren't considered the best in the world by international organisations or by international competitors and hence why they feel like other countries must prove there worth in Europe especially from a Mile upwards. The last thing I want bring up is the fact that as I mentioned earlier that the racing in Europe shapes the breed and thus it's big business as it would be profitable to win the most prestigious races in order to increase their stud value as it proves their worth on the track and that they have exceptional ability to pass on to their offspring.
P.S
I am not European/British. I am South African and this is just my assessment of the racing world. Feel free to correct me on any factual mistakes. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just realize the quality of European horses and do not feel that they are overrated in any way.



These are great points. I don't think its a disrespect to Australian horses, its just an opinion that is well supported by evidence that European middle distance horses are the best in the world generally, that is not to say that the best horse at any one time is always from Europe, but that Europe has the most world class horses at the middle distances. Group One horses in Europe (and when we say Europe we really mean the UK, Ireland and France) race in the most competitive fields every race. I have absolute respect for Winx, I just think its a fact that in her 29 wins she has not beaten a more competitive field than many horses in Europe currently have, that doesnt mean that she isnt the best in the world, just that I don't think you can make a definite claim that she is and suggest it laughable that Cracksman would beat her. I think this is far more disrespectful to laugh at such a suggestion of a horse as good and as proven as cracksman than it is to suggest that Winx may not be the best horse in the world.


Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:50 pm
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Post Re: Winx
Quote:
laughable that Cracksman would beat her. I think this is far more disrespectful to laugh at such a suggestion of a horse as good and as proven as cracksman than it is to suggest that Winx may not be the best horse in the world.


Can you please highlight where I have said that it is laughable that Cracksman would beat her.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:57 am
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Group 2 winner

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:26 am
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Post Re: Winx
NPG I'll agree with you all day with what ever you say, but can we all agree that winx is the greatest horse on this side of the world? for me Saturday was a day where I cried watching the cox plate, it was moving to say the least, you had the crowd, the day was a perfect weather, and then she winx comes out and does that for the fourth time, for me that was a day in paradise, so it does not matter which country got the best horse in the world because to the Australian people winx is our hero, I just want to ask one question from the brits, I have seen G1 racing in UK on TV but there is always a handfull of people standing around the track but the worst part is, the crowds look like the are busting to go to the toilet for "Number 2" why is that? even your own trainers & jockeys they get moved by Australian racing, I say you guys should liven up your racing carnivals a wee bit.


Please no offence taken.

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Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:35 am
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Post Re: Winx
When Hugh took her 4 wide and she strolled up to Benbatl - you knew the race was over - we witnessed probably the greatest moment in Australian racing last Saturday. Black Caviar and Makybe Diva - how lucky have we been to watch these great race horses.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:43 am
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
When Hugh took her 4 wide and she strolled up to Benbatl - you knew the race was over - we witnessed probably the greatest moment in Australian racing last Saturday. Black Caviar and Makybe Diva - how lucky have we been to watch these great race horses.


And mind you NPG hugh gave Benbatl a chance coming around the corner, he let him go first that's what made the cox plate a magic moment in the history of the cox plate, that you Godolphins had every conceivable chance around the corner to be fair NPG, I tip my hat to benbatl, he didn't get beaten that far, but still got beaten.
A race to remember.

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Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:23 am
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
Quote:
laughable that Cracksman would beat her. I think this is far more disrespectful to laugh at such a suggestion of a horse as good and as proven as cracksman than it is to suggest that Winx may not be the best horse in the world.


Can you please highlight where I have said that it is laughable that Cracksman would beat her.


You never said it, I was referring to the headline of a paper in Australia after what matt Chapman said, asking if he was having a laugh by suggesting cracksman would beat her. That was the point I wanted to make if you look back at my first post, if she hasn't raced against the same caliber of horses as cracksman has, I think it's disrespectful and just outright naivety to suggest it's so obvious she would beat a horse as good as cracksman.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:41 am
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Post Re: Winx
I just read up on Cracksman and while I agree he's a very good horse I don't think he's the world beater that many think he is. His 2nd in the Prince of Wales dents his record.
If Wings of Eagles hadn't had the career ending injury I don't think we'd be talking about Cracksman. Cliffs of Moher should win the Melbourne Cup easily.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:14 am
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Post Re: Winx
There's lots of excuses in the Prince of Wales, he was never travelling at all in the race and he has his temperament issues. I'm not sure wings of eagles injury has any relevance to cracksmans ability.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:07 pm
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:32 pm
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
Take the size of Australia - it would take up all of mainland Europe and the British Isles - when you look at it like that then you see why Australia appears to have too many G1s - Imagine Europe was one country and not many countries, in that scenario it would be like saying Europe has too many G1s.
Moonee Valley is not about the short straight it's about winding up from the 600m and sustaining a sprinting burst. In my opinion the average racehorse can't sustain a final 300 to 400m burst - I think the idea of really long straights is over rated - a 400m home straight is ample time to balance up and sustain a finishing burst. In the next few years they will shut down the Valley and redevelop it - build apartment blocks around the back of the straight and put up lighting towers and do a lot of night racing there. It will be the Happy Valley racetrack of Australia.
Handicap racing is a quirk of Australia and it appears for South Africa as well - it's a great concept - great horses that carry big weights and win truly show their heart and class or it's a well weighted horse that wins - they are great for punting.

Winx doesn't have a short burst - she has a really long sprinting finish, that's why she has gone undefeated for so long - she goes past the post flat out.


The physical size of Australia might be just as big but I'm am referring to the talent pool size I.e. the number of horses competing in Europe throughout the year. I tried to find relevant information regarding to pool size but it is a bit of a hassle trying to find accurate information but I can assume that the are more horses competing in Europe based on the number of nationalities involved. The past two decades of having Japanese competitors racing in France & UK broadens the reaches of the European Collateral formlines. These formlines are further boosted when top horses in Europe or their competition compete in many different countries overseas.

I mentioned the length of the stretch because it's easier to get into a striking position on a longer straight and their seems to be little to no draw bias on European tracks compared to tracks with shorter run ins. I also mentioned Moonee Valley because as you said the horses start moving at the 600m-if they're not sleeping- this is however on a turn which means it favours horses that can corner well and shorter horses with shorter strides.I can't imagine a tall, long legged horses doing well at Moonee Valley. I find it logical to believe that it is easiest to accelerate in a straight line hence why I believe there is no inherent disadvantage to long striding or short striding horses, big or small horses. In South Africa in the cape summer season horses run on the Kenilworth summer course rather than the Kenilworth winter course . This is because the winter course has a 450m run in compared to the summer course which has a 600m run in. The big group 1 races in Cape Town are run during Cape summer season and are all run on the summer course. That is just an example of scheduling according to the length of the home straight.

I mentioned group 1 handicaps because although they're are good for punters they're but not for the stud book. Most of our stallions are imported mainly because top middle distances at 10F upwards have only 2 WFA Group 1 races at that distance. Both became WFA this year only. When that happened most of our top horses from South Africa dodged our most prestigious race The Durban July. Our sprinters and milers are fine. Most of their races are WFA. IMO long winning streaks and large winning distances in Group 1 WFA races are just as much of a spectacle for the public as top group 1 handicaps if not more. Winx is an example of a horse that races in WFA races. She is a bonafide Superstar Down Under. She also gains attention worldwide for her performances. There is a place for both handicaps and WFA races.

Sorry for the long message. I like to include as much detail as possible. I'm very detail orientated :lol: This is also just my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion. I'm just elaborating on my opinion. Thank you.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Winx
All I can add to that is in Australia the racing game is a very big industry - especially donw the East coast. A lot of our horses get sold to Singapore and Hong Kong.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:08 pm
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
I just read up on Cracksman and while I agree he's a very good horse I don't think he's the world beater that many think he is. His 2nd in the Prince of Wales dents his record.
If Wings of Eagles hadn't had the career ending injury I don't think we'd be talking about Cracksman. Cliffs of Moher should win the Melbourne Cup easily.


Cracksman was a monster. I am absolutely convinced that he would have beaten any horse in last year's Champion Stakes, Enable included.

Cross Counter wins the Melbourne Cup.


Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:51 pm
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Post Re: Winx
Degaussed wrote:
NPG319 wrote:
I just read up on Cracksman and while I agree he's a very good horse I don't think he's the world beater that many think he is. His 2nd in the Prince of Wales dents his record.
If Wings of Eagles hadn't had the career ending injury I don't think we'd be talking about Cracksman. Cliffs of Moher should win the Melbourne Cup easily.


Cracksman was a monster. I am absolutely convinced that he would have beaten any horse in last year's Champion Stakes, Enable included.

Cross Counter wins the Melbourne Cup.


Melb Cup is going to be very open this year - check out the Japanese horses entered as well.


Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:13 am
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Winx
NPG319 wrote:
Degaussed wrote:
NPG319 wrote:
I just read up on Cracksman and while I agree he's a very good horse I don't think he's the world beater that many think he is. His 2nd in the Prince of Wales dents his record.
If Wings of Eagles hadn't had the career ending injury I don't think we'd be talking about Cracksman. Cliffs of Moher should win the Melbourne Cup easily.


Cracksman was a monster. I am absolutely convinced that he would have beaten any horse in last year's Champion Stakes, Enable included.

Cross Counter wins the Melbourne Cup.


Melb Cup is going to be very open this year - check out the Japanese horses entered as well.


Is there a strong Aus contingent? It feels like most of the decent stayers from Europe have been targeted towards the race.


Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:14 pm
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