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Ubar02 wrote:

Yes I think that's the plan. Could be different though having suffered a bad injury. And Wings of Eagles won 2 races, was beaten in his subsequent start and retired, I suspect so his value didn't decrease. Hadn't won any other stakes races and was imo one of the worst Derby winners of recent years and just a fluke on the day. Very different profile to Masar.

qwsa wrote:

Ubar02 wrote:

Exactly, completely different case to Masar, Wings of Eagles is not a case of what could have been, was one of the worst Derby winners in recent years and would have been beaten by several of those he beat in the derby if he had of kept running.

Ubar02 wrote:

Wings of eagles wasn't even the best o brien horse in the race let alone the best horse in the race. He just was able to benefit from the rising ground in the final furlong at Epsom to finish fast. Epsom is a very idiosyncratic course and if you watch the race it's clear cracksman isn't comfortable on it. The other truth is that he improved significantly between Epsom and the late summer races where he really started to get higher ratings. And if you're that determined to knock cracksman then wouldn't you say beating highland reel by 7 1/4 lengths in the champion was a better performance than when winx beat him? He was behind cliffsofmoher in the Derby and put 15l into him in the champion so it's clear that by the end of the season that Derby was very irrelevant.

qwsa wrote:

If I may add, Enable beat Highland Reel that same season by aboout 9 lengths.

Author:	Ubar02 [ Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Masar
Beat Roaring Lion in every race, including that awesome Craven stakes win. What could have been?

Author:	NPG319 [ Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Same for Wings of Eagles.

Author:	Degaussed [ Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Masar is coming back as a 4yo isn't he? Hopefully we will see him come back to his best.

Author:	Ubar02 [ Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Yes I think that's the plan. Could be different though having suffered a bad injury. And Wings of Eagles won 2 races, was beaten in his subsequent start and retired, I suspect so his value didn't decrease. Hadn't won any other stakes races and was imo one of the worst Derby winners of recent years and just a fluke on the day. Very different profile to Masar.

Author:	Degaussed [ Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Wings of Eagles was injured. Coolmore have no real need to fake an injury to him as they have plenty of stallion prospects.

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Masar http://www.startersorders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17380	Page 1 of 1

Author:	qwsa [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Ubar02 wrote: Yes I think that's the plan. Could be different though having suffered a bad injury. And Wings of Eagles won 2 races, was beaten in his subsequent start and retired, I suspect so his value didn't decrease. Hadn't won any other stakes races and was imo one of the worst Derby winners of recent years and just a fluke on the day. Very different profile to Masar. Exactly, completely different case to Masar, Wings of Eagles is not a case of what could have been, was one of the worst Derby winners in recent years and would have been beaten by several of those he beat in the derby if he had of kept running.

Author:	NPG319 [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
qwsa wrote: Ubar02 wrote: Yes I think that's the plan. Could be different though having suffered a bad injury. And Wings of Eagles won 2 races, was beaten in his subsequent start and retired, I suspect so his value didn't decrease. Hadn't won any other stakes races and was imo one of the worst Derby winners of recent years and just a fluke on the day. Very different profile to Masar. Exactly, completely different case to Masar, Wings of Eagles is not a case of what could have been, was one of the worst Derby winners in recent years and would have been beaten by several of those he beat in the derby if he had of kept running. Wings of Eagles would have won his next start, the Irish Derby as well if not sustaining a career ending injury at some stage during the run, finishing third by a neck and a short head and would have beaten Cracksman twice if not for that injury. Either Cracksman is as good as people say or he is not. If you don't rate Wings of Eagles then how can Cracksman be highly rated?

Author:	Ubar02 [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Wings of eagles wasn't even the best o brien horse in the race let alone the best horse in the race. He just was able to benefit from the rising ground in the final furlong at Epsom to finish fast. Epsom is a very idiosyncratic course and if you watch the race it's clear cracksman isn't comfortable on it. The other truth is that he improved significantly between Epsom and the late summer races where he really started to get higher ratings. And if you're that determined to knock cracksman then wouldn't you say beating highland reel by 7 1/4 lengths in the champion was a better performance than when winx beat him? He was behind cliffsofmoher in the Derby and put 15l into him in the champion so it's clear that by the end of the season that Derby was very irrelevant.

Author:	NPG319 [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Ubar02 wrote: Wings of eagles wasn't even the best o brien horse in the race let alone the best horse in the race. He just was able to benefit from the rising ground in the final furlong at Epsom to finish fast. Epsom is a very idiosyncratic course and if you watch the race it's clear cracksman isn't comfortable on it. The other truth is that he improved significantly between Epsom and the late summer races where he really started to get higher ratings. And if you're that determined to knock cracksman then wouldn't you say beating highland reel by 7 1/4 lengths in the champion was a better performance than when winx beat him? He was behind cliffsofmoher in the Derby and put 15l into him in the champion so it's clear that by the end of the season that Derby was very irrelevant. Wings of Eagles never got the chance to prove if he could improve with age. But it is clear that if he didn't sustain that injury during running then he would have beaten Cracksman twice. Just because he wasn't the best AOB horse in the race on paper - it doesn't mean that AOB and Co didn't have a much higher opinion of the horse. I've seen it time and again with top trainers with multiple horses in big races where the roughie gets up and for good reason - getting good odds and keeping it under wraps. And Highland Reel was how old when Cracksman beat him? Cracksman is a good horse but he's not yet a Champ.

Author:	qwsa [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
Highland reel was 5 when Cracksman beat him, and he was far better at 5 than he was at 3, which is when Winx beat him. You cant say that Wings of Eagles would have beaten him twice for sure, you dont know how much this injury effected the horse in the actual race, not to mention that Cracksman really should have won that Irish Derby, he was not given the best of rides. You talk about people not giving Winx the credit she deserves when we simply mention the fact that she has not beaten great horses, and yet who are seriously undermining Cracksman and his form. If you consider Winx beating Highland Reel to be the best piece of form in her record, than Cracksman blows that away by beating him by just as far if not further, when he was much better than he was when Winx beat him.

Author:	NPG319 [ Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Masar
qwsa wrote: If I may add, Enable beat Highland Reel that same season by aboout 9 lengths. Enabled seems like the real deal.

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