Yeah i think he has been held back and i think they should be going the eclipse. He is the most amazing horse but even frankel will never equal the Brigadiers achievements. What if he runs away with the Juddmonte then id be tempted to go the arc then breeders cup. I think they have to keep their options open and be flexible instead of pinpointing certain races. He has nothing left to prove over a mile and they shouldnt be worried about him getting beat cos thats part of the challenge.

here we go again Mike

imperial monarch would not have got near to camelot not a chance

Facts are facts what camelot has achieved makes him the best horse to come out of ballydoyle in aidans time thats not bullshit
G1 winner a 2 & 3
3 claasics over 1m 1m4f on various ground
1.7million in prizemoney more than frankel has won in his whole career
no other Coolmore horse has achieved this so therefore he has to be the greatest that they have had FACT

frankel would have won the derby last year he would have p@@sed the bc mile if he had a owner with balls
so mike cant see your point about owners there frankel could have achieved so much more at 3 some would say his owners have played it
safe with frankel even though he is the best horse i have EVER seen
he wont leave the uk this year again which is a shame his pressence would grace the breeders cup or the arc and i believe
that frankels connections have held back Frankel a moster of a horse with that abillity he could have achieved alot more by now


so far Camelot has achieved more at 3 than frankel

i respect you opinion Mike and we have had a right few barneys in the past just think the above points to the fact that
Camelot is an exceptional horse classic wise and he has more tests to pass
i think coolmore showed alot of balls running him last night in ground they knew he would hate
his class and class alone got him through

would cecil have run frankel in the juddmonte at 1m2 half on heavy (I Dont think he would)
Ok rant over

I don't think they were that brave in running Camelot last night, Irish derby isn't the best race normally anyway and that was a particularly poor field, Camelot was the only one with any group 1 form at further than a mile and on form it was a walkover. The only reason they said he didn't like the ground is because born to sea got close to him, if he had won by 10 lengths they wouldn't have said anything. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a seriously good horse but I don't think it was that brave a decision to race him, on form it was an easy victory, what would have been much braver and what I would have done would have been to wait for the king George before the leger.

I completely agree. The Irish Derby was very much the easiest and safest option for Camelot, and in the end he's beaten nothing yesterday. I know they have SYT for the Eclipse and SNA for the King George, but if Camelot is better than those two, why is Camelot not the horse they're putting in the stronger races? The Irish Derby is usually a pretty weak race (outside of the O'Brien entries), and adds very little to the reputation of a horse that has already won the Epsom Derby.

STS ran in the Eclipse, Juddmonte International, Irish Champion and Arc as a 3yo, but I'm beginning to think Camelot might only take on the older horses once. In which case, Camelot would be nowhere near STS in the list of all-time greats, even if he remains unbeaten and completes the triple crown walkover.

No Paul l still totally believe they pulled Imperial out as they thought they would lose Camelots unbeaten record by one of there own horses which wouldnt of gone down well at all. Imperial would of loved that ground and so was no other reason to pull him out.

Imperial Monarch was pulled out because of the ground.

Never seen a horse withdrawn because he'd be too good on it

Still fair play to Camelot, at least he ran. He hasn't done more than Frankel though, not until he beats older horses by 5 lengths...

which hopefully he will go on to do

Is this the same Frankel connections kept in training at 4 or the one that was quickly rushed off to stud at the end of his 3yo season having never raced against his elders?

Camelot's guineas form took another downturn today with French Fifteens run in the Prix Jean Prat, is this the weakest year ever for 3YO's?

Everyone knew before the Guineas it was a weak renewal, thats why Camelot was a storming bet at 2/1, because he was the only top class Group 1 horse in the race. So why surprise that the form has taken knocks?

Frankel won a shockingly poor Guineas aswell, does that take anything away from his performance or your overall opinion of the horse?

Fair play for keeping Frankel out as a 4yo, but they still havent really tested the horse in the slightest, he is a great miler just now until proven otherwise and he isnt even in the discussion yet with Sea The Stars and Camelot in terms of actual achievements.

We all know he is in a league of his own in terms of ability but connections wont take him out of his comfort zone, if Frankel never ran beyond a mile no one on here would say a word against Cecil or Abdullah but they find it very easy to slate Obrien and Coolmore. At least be consistent with your judgements.

I just don't think this years 3YO's are much cop. Had Frankel retired last season he would still have beaten Canford Cliffs at Goodwood (Older horse), Camelot has done it over a wider range of differences and that is impressive but at this moment in time I don't think he is anything like as good as being claimed. It would be nice to see him come back as a 4YO but can anybody see it happening?

spot on mate as usual

he is already part of coolmores 2013 roster to fill the massive hole left by montjeu

Fair enough, I think Khalid Abdulla should be commended on his racing philosophy as more often than not his good horses come back and try to prove it again the following year

Montjeu isn't really known as a sire of sires is he? Pour Moi and Hurricane Run are the only two I can think of that Coolmore have retained. Motivator and Authorized have produced average crops so far.

St Nicholas Abbey is going to retire at the end of this season, let's be honest he's the same horse as Camelot. Lithe, powerful, great turn of foot, the Derby was a carbon copy of the Coronation. Only difference is SNA looked like he hadn't even started training when he raced in the Guineas and came up against one of the strongest Guineas of the last 10 years, and he possibly injured himself.

It's an absolute nonsense that he is being retired at 3. At least they are going for the Leger and trying to get racing on the back pages but if I had a mare I'd choose SNA over Camelot every single time.

I will also add Frankel has beaten almost as many individual horses as Black Caviar in practically half the races. If you strip out horses that were 66/1+ (no hopers) then it's comfortably more. He could easily have stepped up to 1m2f but that's an even weaker division given the breeding shift towards speed these days and look at him, he's not a 12f horse is he? Black Caviar almost lost a stiff 6f. A mere 200 yards more than her optimum...