Cos you said a miler would have too much speed for a middle distance horse over 1m2. Thats why i said it

The brigadier wasnt right? Roberto broke the course record and beat him by 3 lengths and he was a derby winner coming back in trip. The brigadier was a great miler on par with frankel but in my opinion would have been beaten by mill reef over 1m2.

Well mill reef was a different story as he had already won over 1m2 whereas montjeu hadn't. And Roberts neveranaged to replicate that form and in the race the brigadier didn't look like himself and it was his third race in 5 weeks after the hardest race of his career, the king George.

its all up in the air def irish derby next no further plans until after that i have heard they are strongly considering the leger
which i think is great very brave too unlike STS owner who avoided the leger and BC i think he would have romped home
if he had abritish or irish owner he wold have gone for the leger the gentleman that owned him prob did not understand the meaning of a
triple crown

ofcourse Camelots sire produced last years derby and leger winner Pour Moi & Masked Marvel so i am hoping he will stay

You lot are crazy.

If I was STS owner I wouldn't have gone for the St Leger either. If there wasn't the media hype surrounding it now re Camelot then they might not have seriously considered it either. The race hardly offers much from a stallions point of view and it is a far easier race to win than the Arc, hence STS went there.

A match between DM and Montjeu would've been so false anyway as DM could've set the pace he wanted a it probably would've become a tactical affair, who would have wanted to see that I loved both horses. Montjeu was a better horse than Sindarr.

Galileo was a much better horse than Fatastic Light

Frankel did not dodge horses or any races last year. He was immature and also too strong and powerful for his own good. Now he has learned to settle and use his immense power he will stay 10f and will remain unbeaten. I'll take as much Evens Frankel in a race vs Camelot as anyone wants to lay.

Camelot set a faster time than St Nic because the overall pace of the race was faster. However I do think he is a great horse and will conquer all over 1m4.

STS ran in the Irish Champion Stakes before the Arc, and by that time he had already taken on and beaten older horses twice in the Eclipse and the Juddmonte International (all the more impressive considering he had to take on Team O'Brien and their team tactics in all these races as well as in the Derby), so I'd actually say that was a lot more brave than heading down the safe 3yo-only route of the Irish Derby and St Leger. I don't think going for the St Leger in a year when the 3yo crop is extremely poor is brave in the slightest... Camelot has the Irish Derby and St Leger on a plate, so there's no risk involved whatsoever.

Workforce 231.33
Camelot 233.90
Pour Moi 234.54
Sea the Stars 236.74
New Approach 236.50

Camelots time on good to firm is very very solid even though many will see it as a poor derby
Workforce was an excellent 3yo no one can take that away from him
Dubai Millenium was a amazing horse apart from his 8th in derby won 9/10

Does that make Kris Kin, North Light and Sir Percy better horses than STS then?

You cant take times so literally. It is all about ground, pace of the race, position and tactics, maybe even wind.

Camelot had noone to race. Sir Percy, who I believe was always underrated but isn't as good as Camelot was on a race to the line that he won by less than half a length. I would like to see them, if they are going for the Irish derby, to follow in the footsteps of Nijinsky and go for the king George, especially if he will be retired at 3. If he raves on st 4 I would have the leger possibly as his last race, or the champion. I wouldn't send him to the arc until he was a four year old.
Also I don't think Galileo was better than fantastic light.

PJ has already said it's a certainty that he will be retired at the end of this season, so I'd say the Arc is an absolute must. These days, if you're a middle distance horse in Europe, you're not going to be considered an all-time great unless you win an Arc - it's the championship race for middle distance horses in Europe.

Irish Derby over the King George? I feel like shouting boo at my screen!!

O'Brien wins that poor excuse for a race every year so he can stick imperial monarch, astrology, and a few other average horses in there to win it again.

Put your 'superstar' in a superstar race to prove he is what you say he is. King George, Juddmonte, Leger, Arc. If he wins all four i'll pay his breeding fee and let him give me one because that is how much respect i would have for him

i agree he could win the irish derby with 4 or 5 others i would rather him go for the KG or juddmonte i also think st nic clouds the decision
making process when it comes to camelot

he is not going to add to his rep winning the irish derby by miles he would by winning kg by 4 or 5 l

Matt when i put them derby winning times up was not saying one was beter than the other because he ran quicker times was just stating it was a well above adverage derby winning time as most considered it a poor derby the time was actually solid

i agree with this but Camelot is lightly raced and could still go for leger arc double

i see king george is on 21/7 & irish derby on 30th june so both are still possible

I dont think it was a terrible Derby. I actually think he won very easily and saw the trip out in full. I also think he will be a better horse on a more galloping track. However you could say St Nic was more impressive on the clock because the pace of his race wasn't as generous, though i haven't even checked the sectionals so it might not have been. For me Sir Percy's race was an awful Derby

Yes, but some of the times you listed are for horses that won the race on good ground, while Camelot won it on good to firm ground? You would expect STS and New Approach's times to be slower, as their races were on slower ground. And as was already mentioned, in a 1m4f race there are also lots of other factors. The ground that Camelot won the Derby on was actually very similar to the ground that Workforce won it on, and Workforce was 2.5 secs faster. Also, Authorized's time was within a second of Camelot's, yet his race was on slower ground. You can't read too much into Derby times - the course record was still held by Lammtarra until Workforce beat it, and although he remained unbeaten and won the Derby, KG and Arc, Lammtarra certainly isn't considered an all-time great.

I don't think there's much doubt that it was a poor Derby this year. Only nine horses ran, and only two or three of those had shown any decent form before the race.