I personally think the guineas field was higher quality than the derby, but both of the last two classic crops have been pretty poor, with the exception of excelebration and frankel from last year, as this year older horses have been dominant and I think the only three year olds in open age open to both genders middle distance races have been gabriel(well beaten), bonfire(nowhere), and deep brillante(disappointing). However I think judging by he way he's been campaigned and the fact that SNA should go to stud next year points towards Camelot staying on, and I think, though everyone else has been saying the champion is frankels last race, juddmote have just referred to it as his next assignment. After all, older horses they say are a big part of their interests, and frankel is what khakis abdullah has been building towards ever since he founded juddmonte and he'll never get another like him, and it's not like he needs the money, so I am hopeful he'll keep him in training, just as he has with twice over and midday. I think he may stay in training and follow a potential race plan as follows- lockinge, POW, eclipse, hopefully July cup but unlikely, king George, juddmonte, arc, champion.

I think Camelot will go to stud to replace Montjeu, the Kingmambo speed angle is sought after by breeders at the moment.

I think Frankel will be retired to stud as well. There's literally no point in keeping him in training, he crushes all. The Prince will be thinking about creating a defining legacy from him.

Personally, I'm not sure he'll be a stunning success at stud. I think history will show him to be a sire of quality broodmares.

Both Teddy Grimthorpe and Prince Khalid have stated that he will categorical be retired at the end of his four year old campaign. His barn at Banstead Manor is already waiting for him.
I don't think the Arc was ever truly in consideration after York and given it wasn't the plan from a long way out, I think it is a good move not to go. It's a race best campaigned towards specifically and it's no fluke that season after season, the trainers that get to this point in the season and suddenly go 'we might have a crack at the Arc now' end up watching their horses come nowhere.
Sir Henry and Prince Khalid are big supporters of the Qipco Series / Champions' Day, not to mention Sir Henry has never wavered from the plan with Frankel, so to then do so for his final race was asking too much. He's not a big traveller of horses to France anyway, and while I agree the Champion Stakes is the safer option undoubtedly (you know I rate the Arc a country mile above any other race in the world), this has always been his modus operandi with top horses.
Seeing Frankel trapped on a rail behind horses going nowhere, or putting his undefeated record in the hands of the French Stewards would have been an uncomfortable thought, too uncomfortable for them to overlook imo. Especially as I don't think the scare everyone off and get a small field theory would have come to fruition.
Undefeated records aren't the be all and end all; in fact in Zenyetta's case, I actually think being defeated enhanced her global reputation, but this horse is the masterpiece of Sir Henry's career and I think it is vastly important to him that Frankel retires unblemished and given the horses air of invincibility, he's maybe the one horse from a breeding perspective, where it actually matters too.
In other hands, Frankel may have stepped up to ten furlongs sooner, he may have won a Derby, he may have won a Nunthorpe, and he may be going for the Arc in October, but at the same time, he may have never been harnessed and brought along the way he has been, so we may never have had the horse we now do, or indeed to begin with.
The other factor, and one that has been overlooked, is that Sir Henry may not be in condition to go to Paris, given his health issues; certainly a lot less stressful / demanding for him to get to Ascot and you can trust me that that would have been a big factor in any decision made.
As for the Breeders' Cup, the Classic was never a viable option. He doesn't have a dirt pedigree at all, and it would achieve nothing to run him / risk him on such a surface. It's held in Bobby Frankel's home town, so I think they would have thought long and hard about going, much more so than an Arc bid, but there just doesn't appear a suitable race for him, unless they go up in trip to the BC Turf, or come back in trip for the two turn Turf Mile. Had there been a Turf Classic or even a synthetic surface for the Classic, I fully believe he would be going and ending his career there, but alas.

The St Leger isn't going to show us anything new with Camelot, it's not until he steps out of his own group that we will actually be able to see if he is simply the best of a really bad bunch (nothing wrong in that), or actually a damn good horse. If he wins the Triple Crown, absolutely great, but that will frankly leave him a long way short of Zarkava and Sea The Stars, who both won Classics for fun, but also won the Arc despite neither getting anything like an ideal run through.
About a month ago, I was looking at Camelot and the 1/2, thinking what an atrocious price for a horse that on his Irish Derby performance, is at best 50-50 to stay. I've now had a change of heart because the race looks like cutting up, potentially to the stage where there will be nothing in opposition to even test any stamina doubts. Ted Durcan gave the vibe after the Great Vol, that Main Sequence would be iffy at that Leger trip (I personally think he won't stay either) so the Prix Neil is the preferred option for that camp now. Lady Rothschild would rather go to the Prix Vermaille with Great Heavens, so her participation revolves around whether or not John Gosden attempts to talk her round, and if he does, whether he is successful; Shantaram had a setback that cost him vital work and may not make the race at the current time, and Imperial Monarch won't turn up if Camelot does.
If they all defect, that just leaves Thought Worthy, Michelangelo, Chip and then no-hoper's like Guarantee and Ursa Major, but even Robert Ogden is having second thoughts about Chip running; It's not unthinkable given the current standings, that we could have a field size that doesn't threaten double-figures.

I don't think Camelot will retire this yet, coolmore will see him as untapped potential. If he was to retire this year he would be a rival for SNA, so they will try to avoid them both being first season together.
And I don't remember anything about frankels retirement being suggested by connections, in fact they appear to be the only ones not referring to the champion as frankels last race. I personally think he can only be a disappointment stature, so why not make the most of him on the track, where he belongs?

In terms of ability Frankel is tops, but in terms of historical achievments Sea The Stars is miles clear. He achieved more in one season than Frankel has in 3. He won the Arc in 2.26.30 and the field was as good as any recent renewals, probably better than average, where as Workforce's was below average. So you are saying 3yo Frankel would have beaten the 3yo Fame And Glory 15 lengths or more and ran sub 2.00 in the Irish Champion? Nonsense



If Sea The Stars had stayed in training as 4yo he would have been unbeatable, his Arc run showed that he was becoming the finished artical physically, as you have seen with Frankel this season after been given time to develop. He would have given Workforce weight and an easy beating. What he done as a 3yo is legendary, you probably wont see it again, he had no need to stay out as a 4yo, its not as if he spent his 3yo season beating up the same milers all year.



Goldikova above Sea The Stars and Zarkava Even though Zarkava beat her on the bridle twice. The real greats win from 1m to 1m4. A great miler is a great miler but they dont get into the discussion with the big boys.

Any horse of Coolmore or Juddmonte doesn't belong on the track in their eyes if you know what I mean!

I don't know how much of a flat breeding proposition SNA will be. Fairly precocious at 2 although in hindsight he was racing donkeys. No 3yo campaign of note, only top level success at 12f. He's got the profile of a phenomenal Champion Hurdler and can see him going down the NH sire route like Yeats.

Doc, we'll never know what Sea The Stars would have done at 4. He might have been like Workforce and been useless. Sea The Stars has nowhere near achieved what Frankel has. What gives you that idea? Sea The Stars had 4 outings against the same poor Coolmore horses (Slow Van Winkle, Slower and Glory & Masterslowman - Frankel has raced way more variety of horses, just ask yourself would RVW and Mastercraftsman get close to Excelebration and Canford Cliffs? In fact, don't ask yourself...just follow Coolmore's money) and then ran in an Arc against good horses that were well past it and donkeys. His time in the race is irrelevant. Otherwise Danedream, Bago, Rail Link, Sinndar, Peintre Celebre and Trempolino can enter the argument.

Zarkava beat Goldikova once over a mile and we'll never know if Goldikova was off her game that day. She was upset beforehand, used up a lot of energy and the race didn't go her way either. I personally think that Zarkava is better than Goldikova but we'll never know. Consistency is way more valuable than a one off performance, in one performance you can have things drop your way, the ground can be in your favour and against your opponents.

That's why Goldikova is way more of a legend than Zarkava for me, Zarkava raced in 4 G1s, 3 of which were as good as against the same age and sex as her. She has one top class performance, in the Arc, and you look at that card now and think meh, nothing great. Goldikova ran in 21 G1s and won 14. Sea The Stars was a great horse but is limited by the fact he only competed in one year. If it would have been so easy why not stay in training and achieve immortality?

You get a line through Canford Cliffs who beat RVW cosily in the Sussex who then got within 1 1/2 length of Sea the Stars. Frankel trounced Canford so that tells you that Frankel would beat Sea the Stars fairly easily in all probability. Goldikova was a true star because of the number of group 1s she won which is remarkable. She wasnt the same in her final year but i think in her prime she was better than Canford Cliffs even though he beat her in the Queen Anne. Goldikova will be remembered more than Zarkava

Workforce was no worse at 4 than he was at 3, hes the worst Derby and Arc winner of all time, he beat a 100/1 pacemaker in the Derby in a fluke time, never produced anything like that kind of performance again and won the poorest Arc ive seen. Sea The Stars won the Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion and Arc in the space of 6 months during an unbeaten 3yo campaign posting exceptional times in all bar a Derby run at a crawl. Rip Van Winkle, Delegator, and Mastercraftsman are different class to Dubawi Gold and Native Khan im afraid, he won a stronger Guineas in a faster time. Wins the Eclipse in a fast time, two class 3yo's well clear of Conduit, breaks the track record in the Juddmonte then produces one of the best performances youll see in the Irish Champion and Arc in your life, all the while running against the team tactics and full ammunition of Ballydoyle, no picking and choosing easy targets, no pacemakers no help. Frankel beat Group 3 horses in the Guineas in a visually impressive performance, then held on all out to beat Zoffany in the St James Palace, beats a below par Canford Cliffs in the Sussex in an average time and then wins the QEII from the same horses he has already beaten. How in the name of god can you even compare that to Sea The Stars 3yo season? Dont be absurd.

Excelebration is no Henrythenavigator or Ravens Pass, hes a good solid miler in a weak division with one wonder horse who he cant get near. Look at the horses he has beaten when not running against Frankel, not a top Group 1 miler amongst them. His rating is the biggest joke since Harbingers. All the horses you mentioned have one thing in common, they produced huge performances in the Arc, and horses like Sinndar and Peintre Celebre are champions, thats why they produced it in Europes Championship race.



Off her game? Outclassed you mean. Goldikova was a great miler, again, dosent get into the discussion with the likes of Oh So Sharp, Allez France and Zarkava. To suggest Zarkava only produced one performance is preposterous, murdered in the Boussac on only her second start, giving Dar Re Mi a 10 length start and a beating Vermille, her wins in the French Guineas and Oaks were exceptional, you will not see a horse, colt or filly, with more class in your life. "But you say meh, nothing great"? muppet

As ive said, Sea The Stars done more in his one season than Frankel has done in 3, weve learned absolutely nothing since he beat Canford Cliffs in his first Sussex, once he settled down, no one doubted he would stay 1m2, he stayed a stiff mile at 2 ffs, running in a weak era he should have the best cv of all time to go with the ability we all know he has.

Chance is gone.

You can't say sea the stars was better than frankel as what's to say he would have improved from 3 to 4? It's not a guaranteed certainty a horse will improve from 3 to 4, and as a 3 year old WFA is quite favourable to the more precocious horses, so it is easier for a fully developed 3yo to clean up, also when sea the stars was around the quality of older horses was poor as well, last year canford cliffs was as good an older horse miler as there's been in recent years. And look how easily he beat SNA- he's won the BC turf and got within a few lengths of the arc winner with an awful ride, and frankel just cantered past him. What you have to remember is that they wouldnt go any faster over 1m4 early on than they did in the juddmonte, and the juddmonte is also 1m2 1/2 and the way he was still going away easily would they have got back to him with another furlong and a half- no. And also to say zarkava is one of the greats andabove frankel and up there with sea the stars is ridiculous- she raced once in an open race and is 3 or 4 pounds below BC, and even I would agree with that. She was a good horse, and a top class filly, but not one of the greats. When people look back on these past 10-15 years in the future the horses they'll remember will be Dubai millennium, sea the stars, harbinger, probably black caviar and frankel.

harbinger?
the only reason anyone will remember harbinger will be as the worst horse ever to be rated 130+
he wouldnt make even make a top 10 for the last five years
that is how average a horse he was

The sight of harbinger galloping 10 lengths clear will be remembered for years to come- whatever you may think. Ratings are based primarily on one off performances, and that performance was fully worthy of the 140 mark from time form. He was originally awarded 142, but as he didn't run again it was amended to 140. Vut all the rubbish about him not ever running that well before or running again- that's not how ratings work. They are based on one off performances, and they do get amended to reflect a horses later form or in harbingers case the fact he didn't run again, but he had improved with every run so I believe it was fair. Look at athletics- usain bolts world record for 100m hasn't been criticised or changed just because he hasn't run near it since, and that was just a one off performance, so why should harbingers one off be rated highly?

Name 10 horses from the last 5 years you can say with certainty were better than harbinger.

zenyetta
curlin
zarkava
snow fairy
sea the stars
goldikova
canford cliffs
frankel
new approach
yeats

Zarkava is massively overrated on these forums, snow fairy is good but hasn't won an open group 1, curlin was both overrated and incomparable as he was a dirt horse, yet when he ran on turf he was awful, zenyatta was good but again was a dirt horse and would have still only won two open grade 1s with a better ride, Yeats wqs good but the stayers division is typically weaker and he was just vastly superior to anything in it, canford cliffs was as good an older horse miler as there's been for a few years but he wasn't anything that special, and how you can say new approach is a beter horse than him I have no idea. If I was to make a list of the top 10 of the past 5 years it would go like this in no particular order:
Frankel
Sea the Stars
Harbinger
Rewilding
Goldikova
Dream Ahead
Black Caviar
Ravens pass
Nathaniel
Camelot or zenyatta

sorry but your talking bollocks
they are all multiple group 1 winners
proven time and time again
i doubt any of them would have been taken apart by high heeled for gods sake
harbinger won one group 1
that was it
against the worst field of the decade and even then nothing in opposition ran to form
he doesnt even come close to any of those listed above
and i missed black caviar out there is another one