Half of those fillies have either not won an open group 1 or they won one, the same as harbinger. There is a vast gulf between fillies group 1s and open group 1s- snow fairy is by far and away the best filly around but in open races she is a placed horse. Also, the number of group 1s a horse has won isn't a direct translation to how good the horse is- they could be low quality group 1s or the ground could have been on their side etc.- ravens pass only won 2 group 1s but wa the best horse in Britain that year, even though others had won more. It's about the way the horse wins and what it beats, not just sheer numbers. Yeats won four ascot gold cups. It was a great moment, agreed, but when has the highest rated horse of the year come out of the staying division? And the whole race under performed except harbinger? Workforce who later won the arc and had previously won the derby, cape blanco who later won the Irish champion and various American grade 1s and youmzain, consistently placed in the arc. Are you telling me they all underperformed? Well they didnt. It's like the frankel effect, making good horses look ordinary. Harbinger put up such a good performance it made them all look like they underperformed when they didn't, ask anyone in acing who knows what they're talking about and they'll say it was a phenomenal performance. Again, I'll use the usain bolt analogy. When he ran his world record, nobody else in the race underperformed, in fact some ran their best races ever, it's just he was so far ahead it looked like they had underperformed.

that is exactly what I'm saying
you obviously think harbinger would have won the arc workforce did by seventeen lengths
if he ran to form
that says it all
and youmzain everyone knows he pounds better at longchamp than anywhere else
all you have is one performance
nothing else in his career came close
that doesnt make a great
27 lengths behind monitor closely
6 lengths behind high heeled
get serious!!!!
every horse i mentioned delivered more than one fluke effort
why isnt homecoming queen in your top ten
she has to be or your harbinger arguement is worthless
which makes it worthless anyway

Frankel
Sea the Stars
Goldikova
So you think
Zarkava
New Approach
Zenyatta
Canford Cliffs
Black Caviar
Ravens Pass or Henrythenavigator

Rewilding in the top 10??

If you keep talking about times Doc I can't argue with you. That's such a silly comparison and depends on the size of a field, the ground and how fast the leader goes. You cannot dismiss Workforce's time as a fluke in one breath and use it to justify Sea The Stars in another. If I run the 100m in 9.4 seconds once, is that a fluke? You have to be physically capable of running a time in order to post it.

Sea The Stars was a great horse, he was consistent which is a sign of quality. If you notice I am not saying "he only beat Mastercraftsman by a length" because that isn't everything. The fact that Frankel has reappeared for another season and nothing has got close to him again shows that it is unlikely to be a weak era. Certainly, any argument about "weak eras" is way stronger for one season wonders like Sea The Stars and Zarkava than it is for Frankel.

The Arc is the European Championship race for mile and a half horses. It's not the European Championship race for milers or sprinters. I don't see anyone slating Usain Bolt for not winning the 400m? To be a real great I expect he'll have to win the marathon?

Where has HTN and Ravens Pass come from as well? That was the year before STS. Clearly Coolmore do rate Excelebration in the same league as HTN otherwise, why would they purchase him? Personally I agree with Coolmore, I think Excelebration would give HTN, Ravens Pass, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and Paco Boy a good race and they'd all finish within a couple of lengths at their best.

How so? Workforce produced one fluke time, beating a 100/1 pacemaker in the Derby, he never produced anything close to a time like that again. So its safe so assume that it was a fluke. Sea The Stars consistently produced times in keeping with previous champions in the races that make champions, so when a horse is producing world class times every time it runs, especially in races that all previous champions have went for, you can certainly use it in an argument for how good that horse is.



Wouldnt that make it more likely that its a weak era? I know its a weak era becuse im looking at the horses running during it, outside Frankel, Camelot and Black Caviar there is absolutely nothing. The mile division has no great milers, and the middle distance division has no great stayers, Nathaniel and Excelebration are decent horses in there own right but they are 3 or 4 lengths off Top Group 1 horses.



Usain Bolt stepping up to 400m is the equivalent of Frankel stepping up to 2m, no one is asking him to do that, we want him him to run at a trip he is bred to stay, and a trip we all know he will win at regardless of wether he is a true 1m4 horse or not, after York he is not a miler anymore, he is a middle distance horse with a milers cv.



Just an example of recent top Group 1 milers. Did coolmore say that yeah? We think he will give HTN, Ravens Pass, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and Paco Boy a race did they? No, they said nothing of the sort, they havent compared him to anyone, wouldnt a more obvious reason for buying him be that outside of Frankel, he is the best miler around just now? But if there was no Frankel, his rating would be alot lower and he would be considered the best of a bad bunch, its suits us to overrate him to build up Frankel, but in reality, he held on a neck to beat Side Glance at Ascot. Im not saying hes a bad horse, not by any stretch, hes a Group 1 miler no doubt but hes not a top Group 1 miler.

Ubar, you need locking up.

I put Rewilding in the top 10 because I think he was more talented than we were able to see because his career was cut short- and ravens pass is in there because he's the first British horse to win the BC classic. And yes, harbingers rating was based primarily on 1 performance, but also on his previous races that's Eason. That's how time forms ratings are done- on ONE performance. If you don't like it ring them up and tell them but they've been in the game for 60 years so I think they know what they're talking about. Also the rubbish out being behind that monitor closely and high heeled- that was the previous season- therefore they had no impact on his 4yo rating. As a 4yo he was unbeaten. Before you start critiscing time form and the universal ratings system that has been accepted and tried and tested over decades, read up a bit on how it works first.
Also excelebration could have easily beaten side glance if he was ridden to beat him however he was ridden to beat frankel so was tired out. The same thing happened in the guineas te horses who were ridden to go with him died off whilst the ones that were held up came through.

Dream Ahead Nathaniel and Rewilding above New Approach, Zarkava, Dylan Thomas and Duke Of Marmalade.

give it up lad, youve been rumbled

his other performances that season were barely 120
what does that have to do with anything
rating was wrong but we are not talking about the rating
we are talking about the fact you mention him in same breath as actual great horses
even stoute and moore both seperately said workforce was the better of the two
he isnt even in your list so if you want to talk about people that know
think those two are better positioned than you to comment
so why is workforce not in your list
he should be ahead of harbinger and that in itself says all

My top 5 would be in no order
Sea The Stars
Zarkava
Frankel
Manduro
New Approach

harbinger would have struggled to run within 10lb of 140
had he not been injured
a rating is supposed to reflect a horses ability
140 doesnt reflect his
tragedy wasnt that they were never proved right
was that they were never proved massively wrong
people in and round racing may well say it was a fantastic performance
it was
but bet they would all laugh at you if you said fantastic horse
because he wasnt

I guess using that time logic if I run the 100m a few times I'll fluke a 9.4s. Might as well give me the world record now.



For me, this is absolute madness. The last decade has been the strongest since the days of Brigadier Gerard, My Swallow and Mill Reef at a mile. The breeders have been focussing on speed for the last decade hence the massive improvement in general standards, this is a golden age for milers and that is why Frankel is rated 140+.

Frankel is not bred to stay, look at him man! His dam never raced over a mile. He looks like a sprinter. Compare Chris Hoy to Bradley Wiggins. Frankel to SNA



If Coolmore don't rate Excelebration then why buy him? They have Canford Cliffs, Rock of Gibralter, RVW, HTN, Footstepsinthesand, Excellent Art, Danehill Dancer, Mastercraftsman, Holy Roman Emporer, Giants Causeway, Haradasun and Oratorio... why add another miler?

Interesting debate; I'll throw in a wild-card called Ventura.
She raced for four seasons; was a five-time Grade 1 winner; ran in two different continents, two completely different styles of racing; ran on different surfaces, delivered on ground ranging from soft right up to firm; ran twenty times and was only out of the frame a remarkable twice, only out of the first two, an even more remarkable three times; fell just shy of a 50% strike rate, despite fourteen of those races coming at pattern level, nine at the highest level; ran outside her own sex; was successful outside her own sex; ran in a very strong division at the time; gave weight to Group 1 horses in graded handicaps; could quicken off a slow or fast pace; was tactically versatile; was as adept at seven furlongs as she was at a mile and constantly clocked figures to back her up.
Bobby Frankel had some crackers down the years yet he regarded her as right alongside the best he has ever trained.
There aren't many generally considered boxes she hasn't ticked, and you have about twenty odd horses mentioned on here already from the last five years. How many of them can match the flexibility of her achievements, while at the same time still delivering consistency and success. Not many, not many at all!!
She'd be in my top ten with ease.

Now that is a gear change.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uifWJnFwvTk

Dream ahead- best British sprinter since oasis dream and managed to beat Goldikova over 7
Nathaniel- could easily have won back to back king georges but it came down to the nod on the line
Rewilding- progressive middle distanc horse who beat the Aussie 'superstar' SYT and still had more to come
However new approach won one race I believe as a 3yo, duke of marmalade was the best in a weak year when he only other horse that could get near him was also coolmore owned, Dylan Thomas is not by a long way a truly great horse, and there seems to be some sort of obsession with zarkava on these forums that I just don't understand- how is she better than danedream, who has now won 3 open group 1s, including the arc and king George?
EDIT: make that four open group 1 wins for danedream.

Yet again you've demonstrated that you have no understanding of ratings- they aren't just numbers plucked out of thin air. How could harbinger have won the hardwicke by 31/2 lengths and got a rating of 120?
And how is workforce better than him? On their one meeting he was beaten by over 10 lengths. Even if he had underperformed the wouldn't have ever found 10 lengths on him. And I mention him in the same breath as greats because that's what he was- he put up a scintillating performance on his first start at grade 1 level, and by time forms book he is a great, and I respect time form seeing as they've been around for over 60 years and know what they're talking about.