New Approach won one race as a 3yo, what you on about Ubar??

Derby
Irish Champion
Champion Stakes

3 Top Class Races!

Somehow forgot the derby and Irish champion, I remember the champion particularly because i was there. He put in an impressive performance in that, but he still wasn't beating vintage fields in any, and when he came up against a decent horse- henrythenavigator he got beaten every time.

Ubar, The Majority Off your Comments are a Joke and laughable
Dylan Thomas is not a great horse, but you think Rewilding is. How you can say Rewilding is a Better Horse I dont know!

Dylan Thomas won:
Irish Derby
2 Irish Champion Stakes
Prix Ganay
King George
Arc

Rewilding won:
Great Voltigeur
Sheema Classic
Prince Of Wales's Stakes

Now to me Dylan Thomas was the more Progressive! and It is obvious What the better horse is.

I remember Ventura now, god was that only 4 years ago? I've not really included American horses because of the drugs, tracks and jockey ability (specifically the lack of).

My Top Ten European Horses of the last Decade would be:

1. Frankel
2. Goldikova
3. Sea The Stars
4. Yeats
5. Rock of Gibraltar
6. Hurricane Run
7. Zarkava
8. Ouija Board

Had to stop there...couldn't separate horses like Dalakhani, High Chapparal, New Approach, So You Think, Manduro, Choisir, Gorgeous George, Nathaniel and Camelot if he wins the triple crown.

Rewilding and Harbinger cannot be considered because their careers were cruelly shortened. Rewilding didn't beat SYT fairly either, Frankie beat him home.

New Approach Wasn't a miler and he was running over Henrythenavigators best distance.

Exactly Frankel, New Approach lost nothing in defeat going down a nose to top Group 1 miler in the Guineas while crying out for a trip, he was also Champion 2yo in a good crop with the likes of Ravens Pass, Henry, Fast Company, Twice Over, Famous Name, Rio De La Plata and Myboycharlie who had beaten Natagora in the Prix Morny. If he hadnt got injured after the Derby he would have won the Irish Derby and Juddmonte aswell, and his performance when smashing the Newmarket 1m2 track record was up there with the best ive seen since ive been into racing.

I don't think Ventura ran on lasix, but I could be wrong. I know some of the Juddmonte horses did and some didn't, but if she did that is a fair point.
I can't find either article to quote but So You Think is right, both Sir Michael Stoute and Ryan Moore separately said in interviews Workforce was a better / more talented horse than Harbinger, if memory serves the former used the word 'probably', where as Moore was more decisively in favour. No two people are better placed to make a judgement on the pair; in fact nobody comes remotely close to being able to compare the two other than them, so the fact both came down on the side of Workforce surely says it all regards Harbinger. I can't imagine Workforce would feature highly on many people's top ten horses of the last five years, let alone going further back.
Timeform have always had a flaw in that they get overly high ratings for wide margin successes, because of race standardisation. They will consistently claim that in fact that works the opposite and that it really dums down wide margin winners, but the outcome speaks differently more often than not. Sometimes these ambitious ratings hold up, sometimes they don't, but the aforementioned Homecoming Queen is a prime example. They gave her a rating of 124 for the Guineas win, and you didn't need sixty years of experience to watch that race and come to the conclusion she would never replicate that mark. In fact before or after, she has yet to run to anything within a full stone of that mark. It will be one of the great performances in a Guineas, but she will not be a great winner; In fact she may prove to be one of the worst in a long, long history. They are one-off ratings and as such, unreliable for anything other than judging a performance, not a horse and as such, they are entitled to be queried more than any other.
I take nothing away from that performance in the King George, it was devastating but the mark that resulted from it was far too high and that was a result of an equally poor assessment of his Hardwicke win where he was given 131+. That was the increase that they were never able to truly justify and that was the rating that was most out of sink with the other organisations. I consider him a good horse, who had a nice day in the sun at a track and in a race where everything fell perfectly for him, nothing more.
His rating was not dropped because he didn't run again, his rating of 142 was simply a provisional review in the aftermath of the race. After further reflection and analysis completed with in no more than a few days, it was official registered as 140; The International Classification went for 135* at the end of the year review (the *denoting course specialist/potentially dubious figure for those unsure) and I believe the quote released was 'rather generous' when referring to the 140 by Timeform, in comparison to their outcome.
Timeform of course gave Dancing Brave a rating of 140, level with Harbinger which in itself is laughable and in stark contrast to every other ratings body; If you spoke to anyone who had even the vaguest recollection of that '86 Arc field, and suggested to them Harbinger would be a good enough horse to finish with more behind than in front, they would laugh you out the door and with good reason too; Bering, Archenango, Sharestani, Trypitch, Darara, Shadari, Dihistan, the poor thing wouldn't have stood a prayer.
Harbinger a great?! You are entitled to your opinion, but you'll find yourself in a vast, vast minority. In fact, it'll probably just be you and Harry Herbert

give us your top 10 from the last decade db

Also, clearly you hadn't noticed my list was the past 5 years so Dylan Thomas doesn't feature in it, and if it was the last 10 years my list would be different anyway and he wouldn't be in it.

I am saying that harbinger is one of the greats of the last 5 years, since this was a debate about the last 5 years, of course if you start talking about all time then he would be nowhere near the top for me. And dancing braves OR is ridiculous, how he can be rated above frankel still just shows how out sync the ratings system is. Homecoming queens rating for that race is fair, its the weight she could have carried on that day and won. However now she has been retired and hasn't run near that since, no doubt her rating will go down to reflect it was a one off performance and her average run rating will be a lot lower.

Here is a revised list, since anubisrich disregarded Rewilding and harbinger as their careers were cut short, my new top 10 from 2008-2012, in no particular order below the first two:
Frankel- no explanation needed
Sea The Stars-ditto
Goldikova- greatest female miler for years + BC victories
Dream Ahead- best British sprinter since oasis dream
Black Caviar- some on here would say I've been her biggest critic but I still think what she has done is impressive
Ravens Pass- first British horse (possibly European? French might have won it before) to win the BC classic
Nathaniel- nearly back to back king George winner
Danedream-4 time open group 1 winner including arc and king george
Camelot-time may tell if he is the best of a bad bunch but to win the triple crown would still be something
Zenyatta- best dirt horse of the last 5 years

Still don't know why you thought rewilding deserved a place in the top 10 of the last 5 years, thats pathetic.

And Yes the french have won it with Arcangues, trained by Andre Fabre.

No, you've completely missed it. It doesn't remotely mark him down as one of the greats of the last five years, it only marks the performance down as one of the greats of the last five years. There is a big difference!!
He wasn't even considered the best in his own yard; that pretty much blows any argument out the water.
The '86 Arc was in some quarters considered the strongest ever, others quarters will consider it the strongest since Sea Bird won, but it's certainly universally recognised that no field anywhere has come even close to the strength of it since. Dancing Brave topped a division far, far stronger and far, far more competitive than that in which Frankel has raced against, and won the strongest race in fifty years, coming from a nigh impossible position, passing a ridiculous amount of horses inside the final 300yds and clocking a devastating final figure to do so.
He constantly faced a string of outstanding horses, constantly clocked super fractionals, brilliant displays overall and had final times to back it up to. There isn't a single box he doesn't tick, other than one hit wonder of course. His three year old campaign took in the Craven, the 2000 Guineas, the Derby, the Eclipse, the King George, the Select Stakes, the Arc and the Breeders' Cup Turf. That is what you call being tested!! Horses were compared to a peak of 140, till Dancing Brave came along. His performance in the Arc was considered so phenomenal that horses were no longer compared to a 140, the were compared to Dancing Brave.
Frankel hasn't been tested and he hasn't had the quality of opposition to race against. He hasn't had the factors that allow him to break 141 and that is why he is yet to be put on a par with Dancing Brave. I have no doubt he has more ability than Dancing Brave, but the fact you think Dancing Brave was inflated and Harbinger not, shows a complete lack of understanding on the subject matter. If you don't know the generation, or weren't around at the time, plead ignorance, go take a class, but please don't try and press home some nonsense opinion on an area you clearly know nothing about, especially when you are unable to back it up in the slightest, post after post.



1: Frankel
I don't disagree that Frankel has been campaigned safely, and you want great horses faced with great challenges, tested if you will, but this horse has the scope to win Group 1 races from 5f to 12f and has been gifted with more ability than any other horse in the history of racing. His generation might not be of the calibre seen in other era's but he just destroys solid enough horses time and again, backed up by big figures that mean he has to be numero uno.

2: Sea The Stars
What this horse achieved in his three-year-old season was outstanding. Just like Frankel, the generation he dominated was not up there with the best, but he was vastly superior to them and able to switch between ten and twelve furlongs with absolute ease. He was not exuberant and he only did enough, so what he was truly capable of producing if required, who knows, but what he did produce was more than enough to take second spot.

3: Rock Of Gibraltar
Excellent horse at both two and three, only thrice defeated and a true stand-out miler winning seven Group 1 races on the spin. Dubai Destination, Hawk Wing, Landseer, Banks Hill; they were no back numbers he was duelling it out with race after race!!

4: Black Caviar
Undefeated record outstanding, with some stunning visual performances backed up along the way by the clock time and again. I'm far from a guru of the Australian sprint racing scene, but if connections of Ortensia, of Takeover Target, of Choisir are saying this mare is streets ahead, I'm taking heed. Able to give weight always meritorious and has run through the pain barrier more than once.

5. Zarkava
Exceptional filly, who destroyed Goldikova for fun in both the French Guineas and French Oaks, before adding the Vermaille despite giving Dar Re Mi and co a five length head-start. Not many horses in the world can drop so many lengths at the gate, come from the position she did and on good ground, equal the race record!! Added an Arc in easy fashion, overcoming a graveyard stall and a collision with the rails five yards in, before retiring what I personally consider a season early. She beat a host of smart fillies, brushed Youmzain aside as easily as Sea The Stars did a year later and left Soldier Of Fortune / Duke Of Marmalade trailing in her wake; two horses that had previously been mopping up Group 1 after Group 1.

6: New Approach
Undefeated as a juvenile, landing National Stakes and Dewhurst against a top crop that included Ravens Pass, Rio De La Plata, Fast Company, Famous Name and Myboycharlie. Certainly no shame in twice falling short to crack miler Henrythenavigator and Derby win nothing other than very impressive, given his refusal to settle. Top class performance in the Champion Stakes breaking the course record, his last hurrah and while I don't think he ultimately had the ability to match any of those above him in the first five spots, he easily gains a place in the top ten.

7: Yeats
I don't really care that the staying division isn't the most competitive, it doesn't make achievements any less noteworthy and to win four marathon Ascot Gold Cups, defying age, coming back year after year; that is impressive. He proved himself unquestionably the best stayer of the decade and that is all he could do in the division he was in.

8: Ouija Board
I can't not have the globe-trotting Dunlop filly in the top ten. Dual Oaks winner; third in an Arc; twice successful at the Breeders' Cup and as well as a Hong Kong Vase and a remarkable Nassua win, she took down Electrocusionist and Manduro in the Prince Of Wales. She ran in every top International race going, fillies or colts, it didn't matter, and she was always there or thereabouts.

9: Curlin
Raced in a golden generation with the likes of Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday, Rags To Riches and of course Street Sense. Ultimately came out the best, and was a scintillating winner of the Dubai World Cup as well as the Breeders' Cup Classic, a double that commands supreme respect. The fact he raced against infinitely better opposition than Zenyetta comfortably gives him the nod.

10: Goldikova
I really wanted to fit Dalakhani in, as he was a very classy horse, and I was also tempted by Deep Impact who dominated Japanese racing from ten furlongs, right up to two miles; but the final spot has to go to Goldikova. She was undoubtedly kept in training a year longer than should have been, and it's sad that memories of her include getting brushed aside by Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse as a result, but her Group 1 haul was outstanding. She mixed it wherever she could, was a Breeders' Cup legend and most impressively, was tactically adaptable.

I wonder how much of workforce being considered better was stoutes opinion, and how much was not wanting to upset juddmonte. Also, if they were saying who's better at home- its not all about a horses home work. Night nurse was notoriously bad on the gallops yet at his peak near unbeatable.

It's not just me who say the rankings are a lot harsher than they were- multiple well renowned figures in racing, including one of the actual handicappers on the world thoroughbred ranking say that the ratings are biased towards the earlier horses, such as dancing brave.

Also, isn't racing all about opinions? So it isn't up to you to tell me my opinion about harbinger being a good horse is wrong, just as its not my place to tell you that your opinion he is overrated is wrong. However what I object to is people like so you think spouting a load of crap about harbinger not being worth a 120 time form rating, so this is why I'm defending harbinger.