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 Has breeding become too random? 
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Post Has breeding become too random?
In previous incarnations of the game, even the most casual of players would be able to breed a good horse by crossing a G1 stallion with a G1 filly. This made the game quite easy after a few generations however.

So when I read that the breeding section was going to be overhauled for SO7, I was hoping for a little more difficulty in producing game beating horses. It would seem my wish has been granted in a big way!

IMHO the logic of breeding G1 horses to G1 horses seems to have become lost in a haze of randomness, some of the advice I have read on these forums is to, pretty much use a scattergun approach and breed to any gamebred stallion in the hope of getting offspring with good potential bars. This is presumably without considering distance or going preferences etc?

It would seem the guys who are producing great horses on SO7 are manipulating the potential and other bars through whatever the TTF files are. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but is this the only way to get consistently decent horses out of good parents?

One respected member on here suggested it takes many hours of work to find and then produce good horses, is that really what Mark was aiming for?
I have no interest in joining the league, but breeding is an integral part of this game whether you are a serious or casual player.

I would like to have difficulty stopping playing this game, because I am enjoying it, not because I have to keep working to breed something decent.


Last edited by newmarket on Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:13 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
It is more random, but that is a double-edged sword.

You may get more duds out top crosses (Green Monkey?). But I've gotten a couple of decent horses in my first season breeding off G3 studs and mare that were winners. But nothing interesting, I think. Not raced them yet. You do need to try reading bloodlines, and it helps letting the form build. This gives you the offspring record in the breeding barn.

So across the board you get worse results than before, but this is more realistic like you said you want. The flip side is if you read pedigrees, so sort the sire list by production, look at the mares - what is their production record? Or gamble on a horse just retired but with a nice rating, or who beat some good horses in that one race, and a cheaper fee.

I started the one game I've run into breeding with 5 years form, would have liked 10 but the Legends fix wasn't patched in yet. My top sires list of in-game sires, sorted by produce record is two multi G1 winners, a G3 winner and one that never won a grade/group race. Breeding choices are another minigame now, and not a bad one. Can a horse that never won a graded/group race be stud sensation? Mr Prospector. https://www.forbes.com/2005/05/05/cx_da ... oney1.html Winnings of $112K US. Yes, it happens in real breeding.

However, if you need a multiple G1 winner within three seasons or bust, that is harder. If you play it like an RPG to just make bars higher, that is even harder now. I like it (but I have bred for real, it is that hard! We have whole states here that get excited when just one G1 winning stud moves in - and dies - it is news! https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/231839/morning-line-dies-due-to-complications-from-pneumonia). And that link shows another breeding reality. When you start off you aren't paying to breed to the top multiple G1 winners. Two reasons, you probably can't afford the fee+expenses, and even if you could your mare isn't good enough to be included in his book!. No, if you are rich enough, you are breeding to the better sons of the multiple G1 winners, and you're lucky if you can find even one of those in driving distance.

The game isn't as hard as real breeding. You can cheat money, and multiple winning and producing G1 studs will accept your crappy claimer mare who might be part draft horse from the looks of her, but heh she has papers! You can also do what is effectively frozen semen/frozen embryos using the ttf files, which is illegal in real TBs. But, compared to SO6 the randomness makes it both harder, and easier. More of a gambler's game, with a more realistic like focus on not just race record but production record.

tl;dr It is both harder, and easier than SO6. More random does that. It is more realistic, but nowhere near as hard as real breeding. It also introduces a new minigame with produce record and stud fees in the breeding. The question is: is it "too hard" for the game to be fun? I like it, but I also don't play in league. In game terms it is improved as a Sim but harder as a "Progress Quest" style numbers RPG.


Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
In my view the game developer forgot he was producing a game played for fun, and got lost in trying to make a life sim for those who want to be race horse trainers....... I still hate it.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:30 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
I have played a game building the form before I started and also one that I played from season 1, even with offspring records available I find that the top game stallions don't improve my mares offspring.

I take the point about the Green Monkey, but it is fair to say that even with no guarantees of success if you send a multiple grade 1 winning mare to a multiple grade 1 winning and producing stallion, say Rachel Alexandra to Medaglia d'oro, you are trying to give yourself the best chance of a quality foal. I am still waiting for this to happen.

If you decide to take a chance on a new stallion (Justify) then it is perhaps more of a gamble and the breeding fee may reflect this.

If you decide to go to a stallion who is at the lower end of the market then the fee will definitely reflect the fact that your ambitions are lower.

Also, offers for your multiple grade 1 winning colts are few and far between, breeders with good mares should be queuing up to use your stallion if he has won 5 or more grade 1 races.

I have bought literally hundreds of yearlings, cheap and really expensive at the sales, both at the start of the season and during and have only kept 3 of them to race, these have included lots of G1,2 & 3 crosses with stallions at all levels on the offspring record.

I just feel that horses of both sexes who have won top races should have that reflected in their price tag and their progeny more than they do at the moment.
I said at the top of my first post that the game became too easy before, but in my opinion the breeding side has gone backward for being expanded.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:19 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
It's important when discussing SO7 breeding to know where you are coming from. I know some concerned with the previous league(s) have concerns and most (but not all) of the complaints are coming from league players which makes up a very small number of players.

One of the main complaints with SO6 was that breeding made the game too easy. This is why the changes have been made. After matching good horses for a few seasons the player could basically dominate the game. The current breeding model is more realistic in terms of difficulty breeding quality horses but is is nowhere near (IMO) reality which would make the game far too hit and miss (much more so that currently).

The game has never been developed solely for league play. The league attracts a tiny percentage of players and focusing on it rather than the single player experience would be like the tail wagging the dog.

Single mode players are likely to become more attached and involved with their stable and progress through games much more slowly and also persevere with lower quality produce at a lower level while league players simply churn through discarding lesser horses. Now this churning is a bigger job but it could be that buying in AI horses may be more of a benefit now. It's too early to tell if this will help even out winners among players or have the opposite effect.

The more realistic hit and miss nature of SO7 breeding combined with AI trainers and owners actually breeding horses makes it all a little harder so the single player experience should appeal longer. Until any league is run we won't know how the changes have affected everything. I am also concerned that the previous significant disadvantage front runners in the league had may be flipped to an unrealistic advantage due to the race plan pace changes but there are things that can be done with that.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
newmarket wrote:
... even with offspring records available I find that the top game stallions don't improve my mares offspring.


Excellent phrasing, and if you built form long enough to see progeny racing you can see this in the starter AI studs. The question is, of course,"does he improve mares?". The top stud, sorting by progeny winnings in my flat game, is a dud. He does not improve his mares, and I avoided him. Look at his progeny list and click the mares who were the dams of his best runners. If they are all high quality mares then he isn't helping. I used the G3 stud instead, since two of his nice runners had a non-winner mare and a claimer mare as dams. The information should be there.

newmarket wrote:
Also, offers for your multiple grade 1 winning colts are few and far between, breeders with good mares should be queuing up to use your stallion if he has won 5 or more grade 1 races.


I do have a stud who I just retired this season, and we'll see what offers he gets. Game bred but was a top distance runner (#2 season he last ran, #5 on form vs AI sires list). If he gets no/few offers despite a basement fee, then that may need tuning. Also, you may not get offers without a basement fee until he has progeny to race. So are you supporting your stud with good mares? We'll see how that plays out in game. But it may need tuning, sure.

Mark, if you are reading, I also think the way you tabulate stud stats is not the way I'm used to seeing it. It may help sort AI studs, will make a post in the beta area.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
So I put my 140 rated 20 G1 winning mare to the top rated gamebred stallion by offspring, and I end up with a yearling that has a potential bar of 20 percent. It's just too random i'm afraid, I accept that in this hemisphere Galileo does not hit the mark every time but he doesn't produce that many selling platers either, certainly out of top quality mares. I appreciate the fact that it needs to be harder to breed monster horses but it has gone too far in my opinion, there has to be a level of logic in the matings.

Also as i previously stated, I have spent hours buying in excess of 150 2YO's and 3YO's at the sales without success, if I went to Tattersalls in town in October and spent £100 million I would be expecting to be able to race a majority of these animals. I have resold all bar 3 of them.

Surely there needs to be some differential between paying millions for an unraced horse and paying thousands?

The comment regarding using a G3 stallion instead is a case in point, very few G3 winning horses even make it to stud let alone outperform G1 winning colts in the covering shed.

As I have said, i'm a casual player and have been for the last 8 years, and presumably the type of demographic this game is being aimed at, but by making it frustrating to play is not the way to attract and hold interest.


Last edited by newmarket on Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:51 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
Mark dont listen to them ( if its to hard go play So6 ) its perfect the way it is, u can breed decent/good horses without putting in stupid amount of time . U want a game to last not finish playing with it within a few months.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
I've played SO6 plenty thank you and saying don't listen to them is wrong, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

I have tried to explain my issues sensibly and without malice regarding the game.

The game is not perfect and that is why it is in BETA.


Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:29 pm
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
Mark wrote:
It's important when discussing SO7 breeding to know where you are coming from. I know some concerned with the previous league(s) have concerns and most (but not all) of the complaints are coming from league players which makes up a very small number of players.

One of the main complaints with SO6 was that breeding made the game too easy. This is why the changes have been made. After matching good horses for a few seasons the player could basically dominate the game. The current breeding model is more realistic in terms of difficulty breeding quality horses but is is nowhere near (IMO) reality which would make the game far too hit and miss (much more so that currently).

The game has never been developed solely for league play. The league attracts a tiny percentage of players and focusing on it rather than the single player experience would be like the tail wagging the dog.


The more realistic hit and miss nature of SO7 breeding combined with AI trainers and owners actually breeding horses makes it all a little harder.


Excellent Mark. As a non-league player this is good to hear. This game shouldn't be the preserve of the league players, and breeding shouldn't be easy!

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Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:22 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
I think some people need to get their facts straight , im a league player and I love the challenge and yet Newmarket is not a league player and yet he want's it easy . Please give me names of league players that have said they want it easy .


Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:49 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
Before we all get on high horses(pun intended) about this random breeding topic. We have to be thankful that people are taking time to develop a game like this for us racing enthusiasts. There will never be the perfect way to play as we all have our different theories. Ive been on this forum for many years, I interact quite sincerely, I never like to have a go at people for the way they play their game, I have never joined a league, I'd like to, just my family time takes precedence and my gaming time is not as involved as others may have. I love that there is a game like this, I'm a horse racing fan, i've been involved in racing at an employee level for a racecourse here in australia so my levels of understanding is quite advanced. this leads me to my point on this topic.

Breeding is random.. in real life you never know what you'll get out of a horse.

For example, Black Caviar's dam Helsinge was unraced.. so the potential to breed a champion was anyone's guess.. yes the lines indicated there was good blood but who would have thought an offspring would produced a horse 25 from 25.. in the breeding barn she hasnt bred anything worth getting excited about.

She will reign, Golden slipper winner, was $20000 AUD purchase

Takeover Target was $1000 purchase almost went to the pet food barn ends up winning group races around the world. his breeding lines wouldnt suggest he would be a champion..

Take these examples into SO7, we have stats to help us with breeding, we mix those by breeding horses with similar better stats to try and produce unbeatable horses.. theres no suggestion to say that these unbeatable horses are going to produce in the breeding barn.

Finding your Galileo or Fastnet Rock is the challenge of this game.. which mind you is still in Beta development. Give the game a chance, be constructive not destructive or else join another forum to complain on..

I like reading peoples points of view because I take things on board and try things suggested in my game saves, it might work and im thankful, it might not but at least i took the suggestion on board.

The one thing i detested on previous versions was winning every horse race and was bored of the game so quickly. Yes SO7 breeding is giving me nightmares but its a challenge.

Lets help each other rather than complain because someone does something better than you.

For those that play the league, have put in the hours to do so, if you think you can do good in the league then enter your horses before passing comments..

Thats my opinion, but im thankful to Mark, the developers and this community for all the constructive comments and discussions.


Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:46 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
I'm a league player and proud of it compared to the league 8 or 9 years ago its a great
community and its clean.

I do see things from both sides but it should be respected that its league players
who keep this game alive how many casual players played SO6 from release until the release of SO7
April 2014 to November 2018 playing most days of the week in that time.

There should be no anti league or anti casual vibes here

No League player has asked for breeding to be made easier but lets face it the breeding side of the
game is very inconsistent if you have 20 foals a year and only one is raceable and quite alot of the time
even that horse is unexportable thats where i believe some of the league players have asked for some
slight improvements.

Personally i know the parameters of breeding and if i want to be involved in future leagues hence build
a league team then i have to use the parameters of the current breeding system which I am happy to do so
I know some other league trainers have stressed that as things stand they could not face the thought
of building teams with the way things stand but thats up to each individual.

Just my opinions

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Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:56 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
I am also a league player, and it seems in this instance the founder of the feast. But before I even knew there was a league I was a single player of SO6 for some considerable time, and given in it's current format I cannot see how a league in SO7 will work, chances are I shall mostly be a single player of this game going forward, least for as long as I care too be.

The sad part about this, notwithstanding my original comment should have had some context rather than just a short and blunt opinion, is that in response Mark has basically said ingore the moaners there just league players and as such their opinion does not matter, they should not be listened too as they only make up a tiny percentage of my player base. Regardless of the fact that most of us probabaly have more hours of play time in this thing that anyone else on the boards, whilst further failing to recongise that the words really just convey a sense of huge disappointment in what is being served up in the new version and that a game we have loved just became a luck based crap shoot.

I think I shall step away at this point, seems to me that is what is being asked of me, but the breeding is a problem still in my mind, and I expect most players, single play or us bad league types, will quickly tire as for the hundreth time those two 90% potential horses that you took months to find, just produced yet another 20% foal with a long and enjoyable career pulling a cart to look forward too. Don't even get me started on 2yo auctions which far as I can tell is just the same code from SO6 ported over.

And yes John I am still playing and enjoying SO6, but not because it is easy.


Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:42 am
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Post Re: Has breeding become too random?
Firstly I was not having a go at league players in any way. Feedback from this forum is important in gauging how well things are working and the way forward which is why I said I need to know if the requests for, in effect, faster breeding are coming from primarily league players which want to quickly max out horses.

There is a conflict sometimes between the needs of those who want to breed to the max quickly and those who want to play a single player simulation game. So it would be helpful if those who chime in either way stated where they were coming from and how they play the game. Just for information purposes.

I am happy with it the way things are but tweaks either way are possible.


Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:03 am
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