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 Race realism.. A few observations 
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Post Race realism.. A few observations
I downloaded the demo for greyhound manager and while it has definite potentail I'm slightly concerned about the most important aspect which is the actual race.

There are a few points that I feel need improving if possible.

1- While the greyhounds do impede each other slightly at times it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much as in real races and also the dogs in the game seem to lose at most 1 1/2 lengths when impeded. In real racing with the speed there going at and the momentum they lose when impeded they'd normally lose more ground and sometimes allot more.

2- As an extra to the above point the races view very much like the starters orders horse racing game. The dogs seems to not overly crowd each other and practically move over to let another by. In the horse racing game this is fine as there isn't as much interference in real life. In greyhound racing though dogs will cut the nose off each other into all the bends. I've noticed the wide seeds seem to stay wide throughtout. While some dogs do do this it's a low %. Most wide dogs still cut the corners and run wide on the straights. The races at the moment seems to more reflect a 400m athletics race run in lanes rather than greyhound racing.

3- I also noticed in the trials I ran that a disporportionately high amount of races are won by the dog who leads at the first bend. While in real life the dog who leads will win more often than those in behind it seems way to high a % in the game. Also I have yet to see a dog win that didn't turn in the 1st 3. Again while the 1st 3 dogs to turn will win more often than the last 3 they shouldn't win anywhere near as often as what I'm seeing in the game.

I do think the game has potential to be very good but at the moment the races seem predictable and a bit to friendly.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:59 pm
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Post HOW RUDE
i find your post rude mate, for a start youve only downloaded the demo and feel you are entitled to critisise what has taken the developer of this excellent game a lot of time and effort. id respect your opinion alot more if youd put your hand in your poket like i have and paid the 20 quid for the full version. to post a critique of a game a few hours after it has been released having not purchased the game is incredably inconsiderate and rude.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:32 pm
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I think your getting constructive critism and rude mixed up. Perhaps a dictionary might help?

I have bought all the starters orders horse racing games and they are very good. I didn't say this game wasn't any good I just said it needs a little work. I'm sure Mark will appreciate feedback both positive and negative in order to make the game even better.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:39 pm
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Thats abit harsh imo Brain, i thought thats what a demo was for, to play and then see if you like it ?. He's not slating the game but giving constructive comments on what he's seen from the demo.

How you can class that as rude is beggars belief.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:40 pm
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Cheers Fox I was thinking along the same lines as you.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:49 pm
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Quote:
There are a few points that I feel need improving if possible.

Interference is under simulated a bit, better to be cautious though as I didn’t want the races to be too chaotic. The best dogs will still often lose races.

Dogs do not 'move aside' to let other through though. What is happening is that if a dog is stuck in a pocket it will sometimes (depending on the relative positions of the dogs) force it's way out. The severity of the impact on the dog that gets pushed out can vary. If it is considered 'light' interference then there is no animation change. If more severe then the pushed dog will stumble. Either way the pushed dog will lose some momentum - this loss may not be immediate (as the bad jump stumble is for example) and often the effect is small so it may not be noticeable. ideally, a few extra subtle animations may help here. Hope this clears things up.


Mark.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:49 pm
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Thanks for the reply Mark.

Do you intend to change the interference so as it happens more often. I really think the dogs should be more crowded instead of running 3 or 4 abreast. Real greyhounds cut each other up allot more. I think the way it is at the moment the best dog will win a good bit more often than a dog with a simalar advantage would in real life.

Also you never mentioned wether there is a bias towards front runners. Once position is established it doesn't seem to change as much as it should.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:58 pm
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Awesome game Mark, absolutely fantastic.


Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:44 am
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I agree with nickdundee to an extent. However, I actually think the race sequences are great, and having had yesterday and today off, I must admit I've already watched hundreds of them, as I was instantly addicted to the game! I actually think the AI regarding front-runners is very good - they often win (as in real life), but in the races I've watched, there are also lots of dogs that come from behind to win, and lots of huddled finishes, and contrary to what nickdundee said, I've seen dogs changing position in pretty much every race I've watched. I know the race sequences aren't 100% accurate in terms of real life dog racing, but at the end of the day this is a game, and I worry that if drastic changes are made to the AI in the races, it could go too far in the opposite direction, to the extent where the game just becomes too random and frustrating to play. I think that would just put a lot of people off, especially those who are trying the game out, but have no real knowledge of the sport. I think subtle changes perhaps need to be made to the race sequences, but if any significant changes are made, I'd like to see two patches released - one with race sequences changed and any other changes to the game, and another one with just the other changes, and the race sequences left as they are. That way, people can try the new race sequences, and if they're finding it too frustrating, revert back to the original race AI.


Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:36 am
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There is no bias towards front runners. Obviously front runners are 1. Out of the way of any trouble. 2. Free to gain the advantage of the rail. So they should win more than their fair share of races.

No bias showed up in testing. Now the game is in the 'wild' so to speak I'll keep my eye on feedback regarding this.


Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:36 am
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Panther I also think the graphics and race sequence are very good but i think to high a % of wide seeds stay wide throughout. It seems that very few wide seeds actually rail at all. IMO it would make for better viewing if most of them railed at least to some extent while obviously the dogs with the worst railing attributes would then stay wide.

Anothere poster in the general forum also posted about trapping and I think that this is why I haven't seen many dogs come form behind. The difference between the best and worst trapper seems very big at times. obviuosly some dogs will totally miss the break in real life but it seems regular in the game for there to be 6-8 lengths between 1st and 6th. I'd prefer this to be more compacted.


Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:23 pm
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3- I also noticed in the trials I ran that a disporportionately high amount of races are won by the dog who leads at the first bend. While in real life the dog who leads will win more often than those in behind it seems way to high a % in the game. Also I have yet to see a dog win that didn't turn in the 1st 3. Again while the 1st 3 dogs to turn will win more often than the last 3 they shouldn't win anywhere near as often as what I'm seeing in the game.


I was thinking the same at first,but after buying the game and playing it a bit,i've found this dosent happen to often in class races and/or with races that entrants have raced a few races ...I've put that down to a big gap in class in open trials,A1 dog eventually slow out beating an A10 who pings the lids,also u cant bet on trial races in the bookies,so how do u know it dosent happen in trials really !


Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:29 pm
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Ye I agree it doesn't happen as often in graded races and your right it probably is due to the class difference in the trials were a dog that might normally be coming from behind ends up in front early because he is so much better than the opposition.

Overall the graded/open races make for much better viewing than the trial races.


Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:08 pm
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