So are closing this poll with the shared option ?

Think we just need to get clarity on that so everyone is on same page and then crack on as the luck vs skill debate is one that has been all over the forums recently and we won't get anywhere having it again.

The good thing is that there's plenty of advice for newbies on here and they can choose what they want to try. Big changes to CK and game to make the league easier for new trainers is not something we can resolve, only Mark can do that.

This really doesn't help with getting new trainers involved, an quite frankly is also nonsense. I have improved my horses constantly since I started playing this game. And not from getting lucky with a game horse. I use game horses yes, but not had a beast one since I bred a good sprinter about 25 seasons ago. That sprinter won 1 group1 in the league. The horses I've bred in my sprint game have won a lot more because I breed them from what I see, not what I expect would have been good in previous versions of the game. I speak to different people about breeding techniques etc, an each person is doing it slightly different, but all getting good results.

This isn't because we all keep getting good game horses all the time an others aren't. It's because we spend time actually playing the game, granted, the CK is vitally important, an I agree, if the game horses could be transferred over to league instead, it would be much better. However, this has never been the case, an likely never will be based on the gameplay differences to the CK, odd it is always brought up. Each person I speak to about the game, plays it differently, some are mixed games, some flat only, I personally play a different game for every distance, all flat only, but every game has one thing in common, attention to detail while actually playing the game, an choosing the correct breeding pairs.

I'm sure back in the day no one was saying it was all luck, but the full range of bars never existed then. I find it something that's convenient to hide behind at the minute, and I don't understand why you keep saying you're not advancing, you just won 2 Dubai races first week, finished in the top few on the flat last season, an was very close to winning NH. That's pretty good in anyone's book. The game doesn't have to be about dominating surely? Not everything else is a failure, but most of what you put is really negative

It doesn't take ages to get competitive horses, Ryan and David have come in an not had that long and probably gone beyond a lot of trainers, they're from old school SO, where playing the game mattered, not just being able to replicate everything that you are shown in green bars on the screen. Taking away the green bars extends the game for me, it will take a lot longer to hit the limit with horses. There'll be a lot more swings for trainers while getting there, isn't this what it's meant to be about? Not just there's a list of exactly how good every horse is, no need to play the game, just look for more of those bars an keep repeating.

New trainers can definitely be put off by all this negativity, an it's not warranted most of it, you're actually doing well so I don't understand the negativity

This isn't me proclaiming to know it all or any nonsense like that, I just think these constant comments about luck, an needing to spend hours playing the game put new players off more than anything else. It does require a lot of time, but that time is required playing the actual game properly, not messing round exporting horses from game to game to improve something a bar graph tells you should be improved. Isn't spending time playing the actual game what we should be aiming for?

This is exactly spot on, posts should be positive about what is working for people, help new trainers find their way, let them know that although it's tough at the start, long term they will pick up an become competitive at whatever level they decide to play the game at. Adding mini targets an achievements for them will help 100%

'Another mistake, as it seems is that you need to play a combined game to get decent horses. It should be that if you want to play the American or Australian flat game that you should be able to get very good horses for the league flat game and if you want very good hunt horses then you need to play the hunt only game or the combined game.'

This I'm not sure I agree with though, I only play flat games for my flat horses and I've been competitive enough. I think the best trainer had the best horses (and still does) an everyone now trying to replicate it by thinking it was down to the mixed game. I don't think it gives you much of an advantage over playing flat only, couldn't comment on NH only sorry. But Paul still won the flat last season with Leon, and he plays only flat if I'm not mistaken, I was up there somewhere, an I am only flat . Me an Leon definitely slightly disagree about the mixed game over flat, I just think it's enhanced because a lot of the good trainers use it, but they'd be equally as good going the other way.

This I'm not sure I agree with though, I only play flat games for my flat horses and I've been competitive enough. I think the best trainer had the best horses (and still does) an everyone now trying to replicate it by thinking it was down to the mixed game. I don't think it gives you much of an advantage over playing flat only, couldn't comment on NH only sorry. But Paul still won the flat last season with Leon, and he plays only flat if I'm not mistaken, I was up there somewhere, an I am only flat . Me an Leon definitely slightly disagree about the mixed game over flat, I just think it's enhanced because a lot of the good trainers use it, but they'd be equally as good going the other way.

I will try an contextualise what I put there sorry;

when people are complaining about the really baron 20 -30 season they're having, here's how I deal with that

In my sprint game, which is my most played, an my most successful game, a few times I have gone 4-5 seasons with nothing coming through at all. I seemed to be flying with Hefei Delta, he was breeding well, he was very good himself it all looked Rosy. Hefei Delta produced some very good horses, however, all his stallions have seemed to be duds. I couldn't get a single one of them to breed, and this went on until he was about to die. What I decided to do was look beyond all his superstar colts in the CK. See if I could find any that were consistently finishing in the top 5 or 6 in my trials, but may be being overlooked. I then began to breed with these, ones with consistency, a running style I liked, just without that oomph in the CK. I found at least 2 that have turned in to very good breeders, infact one has bred a lot of my league team now. This went on, an I had about 5-10 very successful seasons again, until, again, the top CK horses began to struggle in the barn. I have now got 3 or 4 stallions, from the same mould, all just below the best, all carrying traits I want from past stallions, all seemingly very good breeders, this lot have taken my 5f horses to another level.

My point is, you have to adapt, don't just think the best CK horses are gonna breed you the best CK horses. I've rambled on a lot about supermares in the past, those horses who had all my best previous colts in their lines, weren't very good in the CK, but produced some unreal horses for me, Hefei delta, Xinyi Player, Beijing respect, Xinyi Nightngale. Every one of those sprinters, was produced from a mare that done nothing in the CK, the common trait was they all scored at least 1 point in my trials. They all had a lot of the exciting horses from previous years breeding in their lines. This translates to Stallions too, it's about what they hold in their lines now, and how good they are at passing that on, rather than just how good they are in the CK.

I keep nearly everything that scores points in my trials now and test how they breed for a season or 2, adds a little bit of time to my game, but it's time figuring out breeding patterns, running styles, compatibility etc, and time I am spending, playing the game how it was meant to be played. Isn't that the point of the league? The breeding is so in depth, an so addictive, pains me seeing it called pot luck an lucky all the time

Have to agree with this. I totally lost my 2 mile hurdle lines. They all went backwards and nothing could get near my old horses. I managed to rekindle it by finding UG far back in both the dam and sire of 2 horses that were no good in the CK, but had decent but not brilliant game form and the result was Great Debate who has kickstarted my 2 mile hurdle lines again.

I have tried everything to get 2 mile chasers. Buying every ai 2 mile chaser I could find and finally I have managed to get somehwere as Close to the Heart ran very well in week 1.

My 3yos weren't much good last season. But with constant breeding with ai horses I have managed to find some decent 3yos and think I may get close in either the Derby or Irish Derby. I haven't restarted a game I have just persisted with the same game trying to find a new angle to improve distances I was poor in or had stagnated

Again I have to emphasize no restart, no super stallion ( there has been no stallion in my breeding barn in my game at any point with more than 10g1s besides mine ). Most ai's I breed with have only one a handful of group 1's but there is something I like about them, maybe their runstyle or maybe their breeding results or maybe they have lines I don't have that may make improvemenst to mine. It doesn't always work but when it does you can normally get a whole bunch of good ones from the ai

Look the game is what the game is and we can't change it, we know the CK is the dogs dinner but unless u get shot of it then we All just have to put up with it. I think people are trying to fined the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow but it's doesn't exist , I think what ever system u use we are at full capacity. The people who want to play the league are playing it now. Instead of trying to make the wheel better just enjoy what we got now. It's more competitive at the top and that's what people wanted.

I've got good two milers and good 4 mile plus horse but everything in between are pretty bog standard and if u had that in the last game u could easily improve all parts of u team with those horses but now u've got to plan how u going to mix and match to get better in all divisions. I still love playing the game even when u get good looking bar horses and they turn out to be total donkeys.

Agree with Ghosty- at the end of the day we all have the freedom to play the game how we prefer, or to not play it if we don't want to. The league has just started, let's all enjoy it rather than get bogged down in this debate.

I for one will not start a new game, i'll keep plugging away on my combined game and try find the right horses when they come along that can build on my 3yo and juveniles where i've hit a wall for a while. My 3m chasers look strong so will keep pushing for improvements there when I start playing again in 2021.

What we need to focus on is enjoying the league and like someone said, how we can grow the league. The setup is fantastic and the game and CK, for now, is what it is - nothing we can do to change it so if people want to be competitive, they will need to trial...and trial...and trial.

Can Gray make a final call on the titles and what we're doing so we can wrap this up and look forward to the races?

I like the idea of loads of prizes I can create something on the site but not right now as just done a load of other things

Good stuff Leon.

Let's go with the idea that there is a title for wins and for prize money and an overall one if someone wins both.

We can then get ideas from the trainers as to what other prizes/titles we might have?

I have only ever started one game, I pressed new play once and everything has come from that one game. I didn't even look for that one good-great horse. I think after 5 seasons I bought a horse called Grandeur and it all started from there. After 40 seasons i've split my game into 3 because it was getting massive. I've got a long distance one and a 2 to 3 mile game and I just breed this front runner called One Man who I love and he'll get a game to himself so I can breed lots of front runners.

Do you think manual training may be causing this. I can see how the breeding works in SO7, that having horses in lines that have been "trained up" may not be beneficial. I can look back in lines knowing what the line will give me but yours may have trained up horses in them who don't pass down the trained up stats thus causing the walls in your game and more importantly causing a deterioration of your ai stock.

Unlike other versions of SO the ai stock is ultra important to refresh my lines and move me forward in areas I have stagnated. As an example 3 of my Dubai winners are still racing in my game and the other has just retired

I think this is the way to go.

From a punting point of view - strike rate is very important - whether it is for a horse, trainer or jockey.
I think it would be interesting to see which trainers have a good strike rate on the flat and over the jumps - for wins especially and maybe for place getters.
I also think best handicap trainer would be cool as that would 'probably' be won by a mid tier trainer.

This I'm not sure I agree with though, I only play flat games for my flat horses and I've been competitive enough. I think the best trainer had the best horses (and still does) an everyone now trying to replicate it by thinking it was down to the mixed game. I don't think it gives you much of an advantage over playing flat only, couldn't comment on NH only sorry. But Paul still won the flat last season with Leon, and he plays only flat if I'm not mistaken, I was up there somewhere, an I am only flat . Me an Leon definitely slightly disagree about the mixed game over flat, I just think it's enhanced because a lot of the good trainers use it, but they'd be equally as good going the other way.[/quote]

As I am not involved with having a stable, I am basing it around what I am reading in the forums. It is good to see that yourself and other trainers are having success with just a flat game. This makes it a little more attractive to me.