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 Handicapping Next season 
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
There are also a lot of ways this could be abused and issues to solve about when and how you could put it in. What for examples happens to existing exports, I have several hundred horses, least on the NH lurking who I have already trialled. You would have to check the game version that horses came from to ensure someone is not running a version pre change, which kind of means no returning horses and those exports I mentioned all get deleted, few days worth of work gone there.

To be honest it is a nonsense, I have changed my mind, I breed about 20 2m chasers per game season all look about the same, multiply this by each code and distance, mostly they only get beaten by each other in the top races and there is nothing much to split them visually. One season of breeding I have enough to trial in the league for about 5 seasons, may as well just stop playing the game now, would take me a week to have enough stock for about 10 leagues of trial error and watching horses trailed off by 20 lengths.

I did try to like it, for at least 5 mins. The game and the CK have to line up for this to even be considered and even then it is an exercise in getting the pin out.


Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:47 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
As a new league trainer and long term offline game player I can say that the discrepancy between CK/League form and game form is completely stopping me from enjoying the offline game.

I really want to play and improve in the league but it is an absolute chore and I completely see how it burns people out.

SO7 without the league is great fun.

The league is great fun.

Combined it feels like a boring grind with very few moments of pure enjoyment.

I'll keep grinding though...

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Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
I doubt there is a single league trainer who likes running trials, especially since there are some many duds to work through. The CK and the game being in alignment would be a great outcome for all, casuals can just go on game, those who want too or just have loads of horses can trial. But the change would have to come from the developer.

He did the league mode so you never know.


Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
Just to let people know I've adjusted the ratings for todays races, I will keep the 'ask the handicapper' thread from now on


as a side, I love trialling :lol: No idea why, it does even get to me when I have a few seasons of nothing, however I see that as an opportunity to adjust the breeding in game an usually do so. Trials tell you just as much from duds as they do when you get a good set.

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Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:50 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
I quite like Martins idea of having a level field based on in game performance, the trialling is a real pain that if we could lose it and have a fair and competitive league based on in game performances i would be hapopy with that. The amount of time I have wasted trialling horses and not necessarily getting anywhere!!!


Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:53 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
dit74 wrote:
I quite like Martins idea of having a level field based on in game performance, the trialling is a real pain that if we could lose it and have a fair and competitive league based on in game performances i would be hapopy with that. The amount of time I have wasted trialling horses and not necessarily getting anywhere!!!


I would love it if u could have a window where u could run 4 races together . People wanted wacky ideas :lol: :lol:


Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:40 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
kniesh wrote:
Just to let people know I've adjusted the ratings for todays races, I will keep the 'ask the handicapper' thread from now on


as a side, I love trialling :lol: No idea why, it does even get to me when I have a few seasons of nothing, however I see that as an opportunity to adjust the breeding in game an usually do so. Trials tell you just as much from duds as they do when you get a good set.


I used to love it in SO5 , that was a long time ago :lol: :lol:


Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:41 pm
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
ghosty wrote:
Doug u said u would change things so what would u change. I think all ideas should be put on the table.


I think Mart's solution of Mark scrapping the ck for the league only would be a quick and easy solution.

BUT

I would go further and add to Mart's idea. (this is dependent if it is possible for Mark to make these sort of changes and these are changes to the flat league game ONLY)
- an auto save at the end of each racing year and at the same time the previous year save is over ridden. This is to stop 'some' trainers saving a game, playing another 20 or more seasons, noting down all the guns then re-installing their save and buying up/breeding all the guns. A yearly save is there for if a player's pc crashes and they can save their game and at worse they only lose one year of game play.
- league mode is a skeleton of the non league game. No customization at all besides silks, stable name etc - so no short seasons to wizz through to speed up your game. No customized race tracks. Every player who clicks on league mode must work their way through a full season, every season.
- I would re-explore showing all stat bars and only showing stat bars that are relevant to the league only.
- If a ck is needed then maybe explore a limited amount of save slots - there would need to be enough room for players to return aged horses each season plus save and trial x-amount of horses each season.

- I would re-explore the schedule to see if it can be cut back to 30 races per week.
- I would explore the option of having just a Europe/America season that alternates with a 'rest of the world' season - that may help returning to 30 races per week. If this change puts us under 30 races per week then we could add more G3 and G2 races and/or add key Euro/USA G1 races - Triple Crown, English Derby, The Arc etc to every season.
- everyone using the racekit must be up to date at the start of the season so all the proper silks are shown. ALSO no clashing silks. Senior trainer gets priority with their choice of silks and the newer trainer gets issued a new set of silks they are happy with by Gray or a small group of 'League Stewards'
- We need to make the league as easy to run as possible. Hopefully the RK handicapping for next season is successful. I think it's better to have trainers moaning about 'The VAR Handicapper' than a volunteer copping a serving.

The League needs to reward trainers who spend more time playing and breeding for the league but also throw up breeding surprises for casual players.
I think the serious trainer will be more analytical than a casual player and they will have more ongoing Group racing success and have far stronger stables.
What needs to be rubbed out is 'game or file manipulation' and the only way you get ahead is through playing the game more often and being smart with breeding.
All loop holes that are identified need to be closed as quickly as possible.
The betterment or 'good of the game' must over ride any short term loss to any and all trainers.
The retainment of new trainers and growth of the league is paramount.
Trial and error will be ongoing until we find that 'sweet spot'.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:18 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
My thoughts, such as they are.

Quote:
I would go further and add to Mart's idea. (this is dependent if it is possible for Mark to make these sort of changes and these are changes to the flat league game ONLY)
- an auto save at the end of each racing year and at the same time the previous year save is over ridden. This is to stop 'some' trainers saving a game, playing another 20 or more seasons, noting down all the guns then re-installing their save and buying up/breeding all the guns. A yearly save is there for if a player's pc crashes and they can save their game and at worse they only lose one year of game play.


There is no way to buy them all up, and breeding with them is something you can do anyway when/if they turn out to be guns second time around. But does anyone actually do this?. I think your reading something into this, an advantage that is not there. The most common outcome for breeding with any good game horse, is a low potential dud, the second most common outcome, is a multi G1 winner in game who looks just like the horse from your side of the pairing who is about 20 lengths off the pace in the CK due to the game side of the pairing. Furthermore the line is a total bust and always will be generation after generation of great in game shite in the CK, make note of the name and avoid. Game horses might be the key, but trust me you have to find the sodding door first.

I wind the clock back on my game for one reason only and that is to 'Geld' them for export but still be able to breed them, mostly on the NH. I can do this with a roll back of only one day. I choose to do it over a few seasons since I trial 3 years in one hit.

Quote:
- league mode is a skeleton of the non league game. No customization at all besides silks, stable name etc - so no short seasons to wizz through to speed up your game. No customized race tracks. Every player who clicks on league mode must work their way through a full season, every season.


Do this anyway so no arguement from me. I use only one mod, the one that allows you to see the incrementations on the bars. But note every league race runner has customised tracks, I know I don't remove them once they are uploaded from dropbox, they are whatever Gray puts out at the start of the season.

Quote:
- I would re-explore showing all stat bars and only showing stat bars that are relevant to the league only.


I would be ok with this, but it is a lesser evil than the CK game misalignment. And they are all relevant I think, including the phantom hidden stats (cough, crap CK code)

Quote:
- If a ck is needed then maybe explore a limited amount of save slots - there would need to be enough room for players to return aged horses each season plus save and trial x-amount of horses each season.


I would say it is needed, and you can guess how much I would hate being forced to play in a manner that suits someone else. Some folks have more time than others, some folks make time, those people will do better if you cannot do the same unlucky ducky. Forcing someone to play your way is a little on the draconain side.

Quote:
- I would re-explore the schedule to see if it can be cut back to 30 races per week.


Fine, but history got us here, in a effort to add more balance, back to thirty will probably open old wounds.

Quote:
- I would explore the option of having just a Europe/America season that alternates with a 'rest of the world' season - that may help returning to 30 races per week. If this change puts us under 30 races per week then we could add more G3 and G2 races and/or add key Euro/USA G1 races - Triple Crown, English Derby, The Arc etc to every season.


Interesting, but could see people skipping seasons and then leave us with even less total players.

Quote:
- everyone using the racekit must be up to date at the start of the season so all the proper silks are shown. ALSO no clashing silks. Senior trainer gets priority with their choice of silks and the newer trainer gets issued a new set of silks they are happy with by Gray or a small group of 'League Stewards'


Think most are, same place you get the updated tracks each year.

Quote:
- We need to make the league as easy to run as possible. Hopefully the RK handicapping for next season is successful. I think it's better to have trainers moaning about 'The VAR Handicapper' than a volunteer copping a serving.


Seems fine.

Quote:
The League needs to reward trainers who spend more time playing and breeding for the league but also throw up breeding surprises for casual players.


It does, but those wonder horses are really rare, sort of unicorn rare so casual play may not uncover them (make it more common and then frequent play will get loads and you have even wider gaps) and they seem to be easy to miss alos since they don't look like it and may not be one in game (Belladona, Season 19, Random breed from basically two game horses, never repeated, won nothing in game, looks awful potential wise etc, never breed her like again)

And it is not just breeding though is it, whilst the CK and game are not in synch it is also trialing which for the league right now is as much part of the game as breeding it, previously you wanted to handicap that?. So if you do remove the CK your again forcing folk to play your way and breed only a number of horses that can be reasonably worked out in pre league exhibitions. I am all for no CK, but do it before the game is aligned to it at our peril. What really needs to happen here is people need to get over the fact the league takes a shite load of work to be successful and will do for as long as there is one person willing to do that work.

Quote:
I think the serious trainer will be more analytical than a casual player and they will have more ongoing Group racing success and have far stronger stables.


Depends how much you handicap them along the way. Honestly stop believing the science, it is just luck and time, the 'science' is mostly a myth or at best is shifting probabilities by tiny fractions. Eventually everyone will be the same level as one by one the top tier slam into the wall and stop progressing.

Quote:
What needs to be rubbed out is 'game or file manipulation' and the only way you get ahead is through playing the game more often and being smart with breeding.


Don't think we have any file manipulation?. Game manuiplation like multiple copies of the same game, or playing without saving backing up saves etc happens, but that's almost impossible to overcome for as a long as a game can be crashed.

Quote:
All loop holes that are identified need to be closed as quickly as possible.


Which will likely mean less are identified in the first place.

Quote:
The betterment or 'good of the game' must over ride any short term loss to any and all trainers.


Minefield.............avoid this one Josh.

Quote:
The retainment of new trainers and growth of the league is paramount.


Agreed, need to retain the old timers too.

Quote:
Trial and error will be ongoing until we find that 'sweet spot'.


When has it ever been otherwise.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:39 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
Just to let you know scrap the ck and make the play blind and you will need to find someone else to run the site as I won't be playing. You are welcome to do what you want but I won't be playing so you will need to find a new programmer. The code is all there in github and someone will have to take over running the server etc. Server is about £20 a month to run

Sorry but I just won't be interested in playing. Already all this argueing and complaining is making me think of is it really worth it. There are other things I can do.

This could have been a good season with trainers returning and very competitive but it has just descended into a farce. Anyway decide what you want and when the decision is made I can pass the code and other details to whoever wants to take over


Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:58 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
leonvr wrote:
Just to let you know scrap the ck and make the play blind and you will need to find someone else to run the site as I won't be playing. You are welcome to do what you want but I won't be playing so you will need to find a new programmer. The code is all there in github and someone will have to take over running the server etc. Server is about £20 a month to run

Sorry but I just won't be interested in playing. Already all this argueing and complaining is making me think of is it really worth it. There are other things I can do.

This could have been a good season with trainers returning and very competitive but it has just descended into a farce. Anyway decide what you want and when the decision is made I can pass the code and other details to whoever wants to take over


I agree Leon.

Honestly don't see the point in all what's been said. I've copied this from my post I put up early today.

Forget about the handicapping, it is what it is for now this season. Plus Vinny is sorting out the crazy ones the race kit puts out.

It's ultra competitive with 24 individual winners on the flat and 19 individual winners over jumps and we are only into week 4 of the league.

Flat one in particular is so competitive with a number of trainers all with 1 or more wins. If you compare this to last season. Leon and Paul were already running away with most wins. This for me goes to show how people have made progress. I believe this will continue a trend and next season be even more competitive.

I don't see any of the smaller trainers on here complaining about anything and to be perfectly honest I don't see an issue with the league as it stands. Few tweaks here any there but this should have been ironed out prior to starting this season. Why bring it all up now??

We seem to always go back around in circles here and it was the case back in the early days. You're never going to please the masses.

The league as it stands now is a million times better than what it used to be and we should agree to disagree it's never going to be perfect.

CK has always been a massive headache. It's a challenge in itself but we all get on with it and try and find those improved horses.

As for the handicap races. Some of the better trainers just want those winners whatever the cost and it does affect the smaller trainers. Leon picked up on a good point in lowering the handicap races even more next season.

Lastly this season is shaping up to be ultra competitive and I'm personally enjoying it. Yeah some bad luck along the way but that horseracing. We need to all just enjoy this season because by the looks of it it could very well be the last.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:27 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
Blind as a bat, I agree, cannot scrap the CK until then game and ck are aligned and even then I still think you need it to handle volume of bred horses. The goal should be to make the ck an optional not a requirement.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
[quote="leonvr"]Just to let you know scrap the ck and make the play blind and you will need to find someone else to run the site as I won't be playing.

Would it really be blind though? Each trainer would be entering their best League Mode horse instead of their best CK horse.

As it is now, is it really necessary to have a scheduled season to race with? Why not scrap all the races and just have a breeding barn and sales and then start trialing 2yos and up in the ck to find your league horses?
What's the point of having horses that win multiple G1 races that when they go to the ck they can't cut the mustard and are losing to horses they were easily beating in the game?

To me, it seems an odd way to run a game and it appears I'm not the only person to hold this thought.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:37 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
Quote:
Forcing someone to play your way is a little on the draconain side.


I'm not forcing anyone to do anything - I was asked my opinion.

Quote:
Fine, but history got us here, in a effort to add more balance, back to thirty will probably open old wounds.


I'm only looking to cutting it back to 30 races so the volunteers aren't over taxed. With the season as it is - it may not be possible. That's why I suggested two different League schedules.


Last edited by NPG319 on Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:42 am
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Post Re: Handicapping Next season
How would you know which one is best?

Right now I have 13 2m chasers in my export bin that I have trialled against each other (repeat all these numbers for hurdlers and all over different distances). They come from multiple seasons, some are already dead, some are old and in the breeding barn, some are from last season. Over the next three seasons I will breed around 60 more (I have 400 mares in my breeding barn on the NH), after in game filtering there will be about 30+ in the export bin. How do I know which 4 of the say 45 horses are my best if I cannot race them against each other?

Quote:
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything - I was asked my opinion.


Fair, and I am not going on the offensive, just offering my opinion in return. Dry text is rather inpersonal, so for clarity I am not trying to rub you up the wrong way.


Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:45 am
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