I agree with these ceilings I honestly do. Each game is different, an each game is, as stated, based around a single player experience. Where I disagree is the luck being 50-50. I'd say there's still luck involved, but more like 20-30% at most. As with poker, you can really enhance the odds of winning over time by doing the right things. Then short term you will get fluctuations. After all, everything to do with this game is just numbers in the background, in the programming.

I really think if I started a flat game now ( I have very little experience on NH so couldn't say about that game), after 3-5 seasons I would know if it was going to be a successful game or not. If it was I'd obviously continue, if it wasn't I'd just start again. I think this is doable for everyone once a new SO starts an everyone's on a level playing field. If you have a game you think is a dud now, an think you can get 30 seasons in before the next season, my advice would be to do it. I think a lot depends on those first 20 seasons. A lot more than people think.

The game I play now is the game I started with at the very start of SO7. Once all the bugs were cleared. I've branched off occasionally, but in general, the horses in the league now, are all descendants of the horses that were Handicappers at best in the first season of SO7 League. I had a few good horses in group races, but I was only learning then. I split it at about season 30, went off on a tangent, an improved, but not enough. I actually went back to that split off season once I'd learned an took it to the next level. All this was because I realised it was just about the right time, that foreign horses were still there, just about though. Each game will give you what you need for the league if you ask me. When I originally started that game, I opened a game in all 15 slots. I played a season of each game, breeding with every stallion in the barn an then checking their stats to see where I could get 100 potential, cruising burst etc. I went back an bred to every one of the good ones with Mares. (make copies of each season so you can go back to the start). Then, every one of their offspring for the next 3-5 seasons of each game went to the CK an were trialled against each other. This is what cuts down the luck of not getting the right game, and missing out on hidden stats. It takes a few weeks of not getting anywhere, but it guarantees the best game to start with, an given you then go on to play lots of season in the league, people having a 15 season head start or so, really doesn't matter

The bold bit is my main point, do this an you take a lot of luck out of the game going forward. It's a slow start, but worth every minute, you get the best stats, and combine it with the best CK hidden stats/form. If you miss this early on in the game (before 25-30 seasons) then it is very hard to then start breeding in stats, and all the hidden stats, almost impossible to get both

Now if someone could tell me how to trial properly to get handy sitting horses an not hold up horses that don't get ridden until the final furlong having gone 12 wide throughout, that would be greatly appreciated

Hi, been awhile, was seriously ill.

I collapsed on golf course last year, 2 weeks before xmas, spent next 6 months flat on my back in hospital and then next 3 months on intense physiotherapy. Only just went back to SO7 10 days ago.

I saw this post and thought I might add my tuppence worth.

When SO7 first came out I experimented with it until most of bugs were sorted. Created my own schedules for flat, NH and combined. The first serious save I made was a combined game.

In the very first season I found a 3yo filly with 100% potential. Thay was it, I was committed to making my combined save work.

After about 30 seasons I split the save, mainly because I was successfully breeding 100% flat horses to the exclusion of the NH side of things. I have only ever had these two combined saves, one where I breed flat horses and the other NH. Both saves are about 90 seasons old.

The flat version still produces 100% 3yo horses. The one big mistake I made early on was not fully appreciating the significance of extra speed in sprinters and cruising burst in longer distance horses. the best extra speed I have is 85% and cruising burst is about 55%.

Not sure if my flat horses would still be competetive as I have done no breeding in a year but the last league season I played, my flat team was near top of the table before my illness.


It has been mentioned in previous posts, no matter what version of the game you play, finding the basic building blocks, good potential, extra speed and cruising burst in the first five seasons is vital. The rest is just breed and trial, breed and trial.


If I could go back to about season 40 in my combined flat save, I would have split it again into 3, one each for sprinters\milers, middle distance and long distance. Would probable do some kind of split for NH as well.


My NH horses have never been super competetive, I think because I concentrated too hard on the flat side of the save in the early seasons. That is the big drawback of a combined save, too many different types of horses in the one save.

If I had to start again, I would start with a flat only save and probably split it after about 20 seasons.

The NH would still be a combined save but with a very customised schedule aimed specifically at breeding NH horses. The reason for this is the ages I like to race my NH horses.

2yo and 3yo on flat - since I have never played a jumps only save, I like the progression my horses make doing it this way.
4yo novice hurdles
5yo novice chase
6yo group hurdles
7yo group chase


As I said above, all my flat horses have come from a combined save, it was finding that one good mare at the very start that made all the difference.

Last thing, I regularly have a big clean out of my horses in the barn, especially after the end of a league season. I keep only the best of the best in the barn. In the flat save, about 70 mares and about 10 stallions.

Merry xmas
Jim

Good to see you back mate, hope you're on the mend now.

Sorry to hear Jim, hope your well and truly recovered now.

Vinny, we will just have to agree to disagree on the skill point, personally I think there is very little actual skill involved in this game. The most controllable aspect is effort and time, and given you clearly outline how you approach the game, that effort is clear to see and right now is rightly being rewarded by your league performance, but effort is still not skill. There is nothing your doing that cannot he copied and repeated by anyone. And if someone finds a higher game ceiling as Martin described it, they will be better than you are, that not skill either it’s luck. You can do everything right and breed donkeys or champions regardless of how much effort you apply, which is why the luck element is equally high as the effort element.

And it’s not poker, you understand all the possible permutations and outcome of poker, the rules are hard and fast and well defined, which is why poker does have a small element of skill in it since the playing field is even. Still more luck than people who are successful at it like to admit, just like this

Last season I put in a load of effort for my NH team, I had done next to nothing the season before and it showed in my results so I turned the screws and put in the time, smashed through breeding and put an utterly dominate team down. Not a drop of skill involved just good old fashioned hard work. This seasons team is back to having done next to nothing, I spend most of my time tinkering with new games now. But I had put in so much effort the season before I had plenty in hand for another team, this years, created with s sprinkle of last min breeding. Where is the skill in that?

The words "skill", "luck" and "time & effort" are being used to help describe success in the league.

I am not sure I would use these exact words but I think all three concepts are important. I would replace "skill" with words like " understanding basic principles" or "methodology" or what "attributes" to look for to make successfull league horses. Martin mentions looking at the Legends, I have never done this, but again, another way to understand the attributes of good horses.

There is definately "luck" involved but that is only in finding a couple of good horses in first few seasons. For me, "Time and effort" is very important, I think you probably need about 40 seasons of the correct breeding "methodology" to have successfull league horses.

When I used to regularly visit the forums, there were always discussions on the methodology of starting a new save, about finding the basic building blocks in first 5 seasons to have a successfull career, about trialling in the ck and breeding with best ck horses. The top trainers know all these things but I am not sure other trainers do understand. Josh, John, Vinny all have different approaches but I suspect behind their different approaches lies the same intrinsic understanding of breeding for the league.

What I am trying to say is that you need all three things mentioned above, Luck, Understanding Basic Breeding Principles and Time & Effort and as Josh mentioned, that still might not be enough.



Without naming names, a long time league trainer with limited success in the league approached me about 15 months ago about giving him advice. Due to my illness I was only able to help him for about 3 months. I see that some of his horses are very competetive in the current league. I am not claiming all the credit for this improvement but I am sure my advice helped.

The first thing I did to help was set up a system where I could see his laptop screen and look at his current stable. Then I asked him to show me his "methodology". I won't describe what I found in detail but the methodology and understanding of breeding principles was poor. The next part took many hours over the next two weeks but I took control of his laptop, started a new save and showed\described what I do. I did delete the save when we we were finished so that he had to start from scratch himself.



It is time to see if I am correct. I have just created a new combined schedule specifically designed to breed NH horses. I started the save with 5 seasons of pre-breeding so that there was a chance of finding some good stallions in the barn. I have just finished season 2 of my actual breeding. I now have 3 yearling colts in the barn with what looks like the correct building blocks. One looks like he will reach 100% potential, another has 95% extra speed and the other has 85% cruising burst. The one thing about these 3 colts, none of their other bars are any good. A lot of work to be done.

If there is still an upload window before week 7 of current league and I can get enough seasons of breeding done before then, I might upload a few NH horses just to see what happens.

Jim

I think I agree more with vinny than josh on skill, to play any game well u need skill or knowledge, whether u think they are different well that's up to each personal opinions. I think luck plays a part at the start where u need luck to be able to be given/find the right horses. I think it takes more than just luck to be able to bred great horses, look at normal players who thinks this game is to hard. We probably think it's to easy. I think u have to have knowledge to bred good horses. U cam be given all the right ingredients at the start but if u can't bake then u not going to make a nice cake. Welcome back Jim, glad u better. I always think of Wayne Rooney probably best ever goal, the skill was doing the bicycle kick but thd total luck was it came of his shin and went it. My misses watches the MOD with me and thinks most goals are by luck than judgement

Glad your back on here Uncle Jim
told you already the other day .. glad your back on the golf course and very well

I hope you are able to do this, I am interested to see how they turn out. I have been working on a similar NH game with the same sort of core stats, in fact I have done a few, slightly less cruise and speed in the current one than you have but still far in advance of my current game horses. And they are always terrible. What my new theory is that horses with these sort of stats are never jumpers, jumpers don’t need that level of perfection, my jumpers always seem to land around 50-60 cruise and 70-80 speed. I think this is where so6 and so7 changed. I also think you can find flat horses like this who can still jump, but I believe somewhere there is a stat or combinations of stats that define a horse as one or the other, and over the course of a season and pure jumper will win more than it loses.

What I am less sure of is if every game type delivers horses of both types, so could people, through no fault of their own be creating a jump line in a flat game or vice versa, still probably good enough to beat the game, but in the league, no chance, and of course they will have the wrong aging which the game defines for their type which will make it worse. Or does the aging itself denote type……

For the last few seasons I keep waiting for people to catch me and then pass me on the NH, since I know with absolute certainty my game is stuck, it will never fundamentally get any better and at 150 seasons I know games lines just as well as I know my own. Leon is I think, also stuck, he has areas he beats me and vice versa, but that’s been consistent each season for a while now. Mr Hooley has looked the most likely candidate who has not hit his ceiling. It’s why my time and effort goes into something new, since I really don’t want to be caught. but despite many attempts I am never hitting the same level and for the most part my new game focus is all about bars, not the case for the old game, as it was well past the point of change before we could see them.

Now don’t get me wrong, the bar approach is definitely the way to go on the flat, cruise and speed are vital and the higher the better on both fronts, and I do look at the legend editor, but don’t expect any eureka moments, but they do enforce a few generally accepted principles.

I think 'knowledge' being used over skill is probably right. When I first came back after about 15 years off, I went through a lot on the forums about breeding etc, but found there were many different ways of doing things. I learnt a lot from Leon, Craig an David too, but again they all done things differently. So instead of just copying, I tried to figure out 'why' the things they were doing were working so I could implement it to something that suits me. I think most trainers who are struggling will be trying to do things too fast. Slowing down an concentrating on trials an breeding, rather than getting through as many seasons as you can, breeding as much as you can with your best CK horses.

Make sure you're breeding your best Mares with the the Stallions that will add something to them they don't have. Not just because are both the best in the CK. If you have a stallion that's got 60 cruise but is only your 3rd or 4th best colt in the CK over 10f, an has 92 potential. Then your best colt in the CK has 100 potential, 55 cruise but is a superstar in the CK. Any mare that already has a potential over 90, an cruise lower than 55 should probably be going to the one most people would ignore based on the trials. Adding that cruise in to an already really good horse will likely do you much more good in the long run. I think that's part of the knowledge/skill I try to talk about. I do know luck exists of course, but if you just try to do the right things all the time, it has less effect on the game.

I promise I'm not just trying to be argumentative Josh I find it interesting we see things so differently, but are both leading the Flat an NH

Thought I'd post a little example of how I do that, as I'm sitting waiting to start work. The below Image shows my google sheets of my 8f breeding. I have one of these for each game I play. Sprinters, milers, 10-12f, an stayers. The key is, any mare I retire to stud in the game, I make notes in game of their stats by hovering over them an pressing 'N'. The Stallions I have the stats here, then it's easy to pair them up. It doesn't take as much time as you'd think once you get through the first lot. You just add notes to about 10 mares each season after trials, then update a couple of colts on the spreadsheet. I get through less seasons now than about 3 seasons ago in the league, but my results have been so much better

Here, Yonkers strikes is my best female miler in the CK at 3, an she won the Irish Guineas in the league this season. She is listed to breed with Fujin Pretence who is nowhere near my best colt in the CK but carries the best cruise line I have, which she needs. Colorado Fudge has just won the Godolphin Mile in the league, an Yuma Genes was 2nd in the English, an Irish Guineas. The key for me is avoiding just breeding Yonkers Strikes with one of these 2, as they're my best, but all have similar stats so wouldn't improve the lines much. If you just continue to only breed the best CK Stallions, with the best CK mares, in my opinion the lines will always flatten out, doing it like this you are always adding an improving the lines. This is only for flat mind you, I have only just set up my combined game for NH horses and the ones I'm uploading this window are likely to not be great as I only just started doing this on that game, so no idea if it's gonna improve the NH side



The stallions without stats there are because I haven't advanced them to 4 in the game yet, or got round to putting their stats in as they're very recently added an I was rushing for uploads

Ah apologies John I thought you did mate

Thats a great point Martin I think all games have a shelf life and when you reach the max thats it game over you won't improve horses and the
horses that were once good enough that become trail benchmarks and you think you have found better other players have not reached the ceiling
in their games go by you and the difference can be vast and quick.

Gamebreds in your database of your game is also key you need top class gamebreds which can be total pot luck

great to see you back Jim hope you are good now mate

Now that’s what you call effort….. even I don’t go so far as a spreadsheet, scribbles on paper is about as far as I go.