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Ubar02
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am Posts: 2119
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Winx
Interested to hear what people will have to say about this. No doubt an unpopular opinion on here but I'm going to say it - I agree with Matt Chapman and having read this article ( https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/anz-bloodstock-news/it-is-ridiculously-easy-to-refute-matt-chapmans-winx-arguement/351092 ) to me a lot of the form lines drawn up seem quite weak. First off- Highland Reel. I know this is one that people use and look to as he was one of the standout horses of the past few years in Europe due to the longevity of his career and some of the races he won. However, just a simple analysis of the weights and the Australian WFA system already throws up some flaws. For example, in Australia, the WFA is graded all the way up to 5 years old, as opposed to 4 years old in Europe, meaning that horses aged 4 still receive weight from those aged 5. Furthermore, the female allowance in Australian racing is 4lb, as opposed to 3lb in Europe and the USA. I have real issues with WFA and the fillies allowance when measuring greatness, but those are discussions for another day. Sticking to the 2015 Cox Plate, Winx carried 8-10 and Highland Reel 8-11 (I'm using stones and lbs as these are easiest for me to understand). Contrast this to if they had faced each other in the Champion Stakes at Ascot, only a week earlier and also over 10f- Winx would have been carrying 9-2, and Highland Reel 9-0. So we see that this race was run under different conditions to any of the other races Highland Reel ran in that year, and he was effectively giving away 3lb to Winx for free, which equates roughly to 2 lengths over 10f. Obviously this wouldn't have meant that he beat her on that day, but already drawing lines through the form in that race is not as straightforward as made out. This is before taking into account the dream run that Winx had in the race and the fact that Moonee Valley is questionable as a championship race course. It is further worth looking at the fillies allowance in Australia compared to in Europe and the USA- that extra 1lb over 7-10f is worth 0.5-0.75 lengths respectively. So what? Well, just looking at several of her races, including last years Cox Plate, where she was essentially benefiting from a bonus 0.75 lengths in a race she won by 0.5 lengths, the margin of victory was a length or less, and its certain that shortening this distance by adjusting the weights would have produced a different result in at least one or more of these races. Just looking at the prolific success of Black Caviar and Winx in the past few years, both racking up generous win streaks, to me suggests there is a flaw in the Australian fillies allowance, and for me, this is why I couldn't have her down as a great.
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:00 pm |
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SiriusChill
Group 1 winner
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 6:57 am Posts: 2867
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
This is a great horse. I think this was about 26 wins ago... https://youtu.be/VuiYGHVQqTU?t=47Welcome back, Ubar. Maybe enjoy this moment of time in our lives and appreciate what she has accomplished instead of being determined to find fault. Not once did you give her any credit for anything she has achieved. Watching her run and win again and again along with huge crowds cheering her on has been amazing to be a part of. I feel lucky to be alive during it. I felt the same way when Zenyatta did her thing here in the US. Her win in the Breeders Cup Classic was the most exhilarating race I have ever witnessed. It wasn't the fastest race or against the best horses ever but the euphoria of the crowd as she crossed the finish line was transmitted across the TV screen and I felt it personally. Great horses inspire fans. Great horses attract new fans. Great horses are remembered. While you are busy with stats and comparing horse form with horses of yesteryear in the only racing code that matters, I and many others will be watching a great horse attempt to win a great race four years in a row. I hope she does it.
_________________https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClB2FZ7Qvwq0Ons_6jN1lAQ - Watch The Cats! 24-7 Webcam Of Non-Profit Cat Rescue
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Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:49 pm |
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Crazybear
Selling plater
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:57 am Posts: 3
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Ben Batle is a really good horse....but nothing was going to beat Winx in that position in running. Go Winx you bloody champion!! ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:22 am |
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NPG319
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am Posts: 2497 Location: South Australia
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:53 am |
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NPG319
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am Posts: 2497 Location: South Australia
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Thing is, people are all trying to find excuses to say she isn't that great. She brained Highland Reel in her first Cox Plate - Highland Reel had the perfect sit and no excuses - whacking on about approx. 0.45kg in weight pull is a pointless - I highly doubt a horse would notice it at WFA and clutching at straws in a handicap race.
Moonee Valley is a great track - as great as any in the world. A great horse wins on any track - punters find excuses.
I think Racing in Australia, Asia, the Middle East and America prove that the ruling body on English Racing is absolutely ripping off the industry in England by offering pathetically poor prizemoney while offering the excuse of 'prestege'. It wont be long before English racing get's left behind. This Spring Carnival has seen more English/Irish horses make the trip down under. Once the 'investors of English racing' - the owners - realise the money to be made bringing their horses down here and Asia - the 'prestege' will start losing it's shine.....especially once a horse turns 4yo.
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:24 am |
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Degaussed
Handicapper
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:44 pm Posts: 145
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Moonee Valley is a dog track. How they get away with hosting the Cox Plate with such a short straight is beyond me.
You keep clinging to the prize money argument, but the Arc has the most prize money of any flat race and Winx has never been considered for bringing over. So, is she staying in Australia for the prize money or not?
English and Irish trainers make the trip down with their G2/G3 horses because they can mop up in weaker races for decent money. With their best horses, they are still going to go for the top European races because our industry is more centred around breeding and breeders want horses who have won the best races, not the ones who have racked up the most prize money. The breeding aspect of the game here is worth far more than prize money.
Winx IS a great horse.
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:16 am |
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pjrhodes1970
Group 1 winner
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm Posts: 15151 Location: Republic of Ireland
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Degaussed wrote: Moonee Valley is a dog track. How they get away with hosting the Cox Plate with such a short straight is beyond me.
You keep clinging to the prize money argument, but the Arc has the most prize money of any flat race and Winx has never been considered for bringing over. So, is she staying in Australia for the prize money or not?
English and Irish trainers make the trip down with their G2/G3 horses because they can mop up in weaker races for decent money. With their best horses, they are still going to go for the top European races because our industry is more centred around breeding and breeders want horses who have won the best races, not the ones who have racked up the most prize money. The breeding aspect of the game here is worth far more than prize money.
Winx IS a great horse. Incorrect there are several races that have more prizemoney than the arc Dubai World Cup The Everest The Pegasus Breeders Cup Classic to name a few also A Mare can earn far more on the track than she can in breeding She is a superstar
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:22 am |
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NPG319
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am Posts: 2497 Location: South Australia
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
The top ten prizemoney winning horses in the world are American, Japanese and Australian and for good reason - they race where the money is. And they may be only G2 and G3 horses for now but it wont be long til they are G1. This is from 2016 and does not include The Everest which is worth $13.000.000 https://www.punters.com.au/forum/horse- ... ney_86393/The Melb cup is now just over $7.000.000 in prizemoney. There are plenty more races in Australia worth a million or more.
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:48 am |
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qwsa
Group 1 winner
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 3:50 pm Posts: 1052
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
I disagree about your comments that the european races will lose their prestige, these races are what make great stallions, and stallions are where the money is. I don't think European trainers will ever start taking their best horses to run in Australia, Hong Kong etc, although I do agree that the prize money here should be higher. But, the horses that are travelling to Australia and other countries, are horses that are not capable of winning group ones in Europe, Banbatle could not win a group one in the UK for example. With horses like this they will continue taking to Australia and the likes because they can have a chance in group ones with higher prize money, but the best horses will stay in Europe and target the big races here still.
The Winx debate I find interesting because any comment that disagrees with her being the best horse in the world is met with such a defensive argument from those that think she is that it stops any serious debate. Any comment to the effect of saying her competition is not the best in the world is met with critisism and claims that we are trying to knock her, but that simply isnt the case. She might be the best horse in the world, but to say it in such a clear manner as Australian fans do is ludicrous, I must say the front cover of the paper talking about Matt Chapmans comment of Cracksman being better than her, that said 'Is he serious..' annoyed me, the suggestion from Australian fans that its laughable to suggest Cracksman could beat her, of course its not. She has won 29 races in a row, which is incredible, the fitness, durability, heart of the horse is amazing, the training performance is amazing. But the point about the lack of world class competition is a valid one, I dont think that any one of her 29 wins hass been a performance better than anything we've seen by Cracksman, Roaring Lion, Enable..., and this is how the world rankings are decided, the best performance, even if it is only in one race.
I am not denying that she may be the best horse in the world, but I do think its a shame that we will never know just how good she is because she has never been challenged, she has beaten a good horse in Benbatl comfortably by a couple of lengths, but there are a number of horses in Europe that could also do this. I very much doubt the owners will ever have a horse like this again, and I think if you have a horse capable of being the best in the world, and winning the biggest races in the world, you should take the chance and try to win these races, and beat the best horses in the world.
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:48 pm |
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Crazybear
Selling plater
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:57 am Posts: 3
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
If you wanted to create a stallion of note......travel to Australia and beat Winx in the Cox Plate. How much money i your stallion worth then??? But of the stallion loses...well that is bad news......Prestige lost.
Full credit for the connections of Benbatl for having the guts to give it a go and not just say "Winx must come to us"
"Winx must come to us"...this is special talk for....no thanks...we do not like 2nd place.
And to those who complain about the length of the straight at Mooney Valley, be pleased it is so short...if the straight was longer....Winx would win by more. 4 Cox plates in a row is much better than 3 Cox plates and a Royal Ascot win..Outright record holder.
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:14 am |
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qwsa
Group 1 winner
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 3:50 pm Posts: 1052
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Of course it's not. Europe has the best middle distance races in the world, this is a fact. Why would the best European horses miss out on a big race here to go to Australia to race in a less prestigious race just to take on one horse. This one horse should travel to where the best races are and to where there is a higher concentration of world class middle distance horses, surely this makes more sense. Surely not bringing winx to royal Ascot is as much, if not more so saying 'no thanks, we don't want to lose' than European horses not going to the cox plate, a race that would never be on the agenda anyway.
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:32 am |
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Degaussed
Handicapper
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:44 pm Posts: 145
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
Crazybear wrote: If you wanted to create a stallion of note......travel to Australia and beat Winx in the Cox Plate. How much money i your stallion worth then??? But of the stallion loses...well that is bad news......Prestige lost.
Full credit for the connections of Benbatl for having the guts to give it a go and not just say "Winx must come to us"
"Winx must come to us"...this is special talk for....no thanks...we do not like 2nd place.
And to those who complain about the length of the straight at Mooney Valley, be pleased it is so short...if the straight was longer....Winx would win by more. 4 Cox plates in a row is much better than 3 Cox plates and a Royal Ascot win..Outright record holder. Beating Winx in the Cox Plate would not make a stallion any more than winning the July Cup would make a stallion. Ultimately, what makes the top level stallions isn't just their consistency at the top level, or beating one horse; it's their pedigree and their proven ability to get consistently quality offspring. I find it strange how so many Australians seems sure that the reason a top level European horse hasn't been sent down is because they are scared of Winx. The truth is, top level trainers just don't care enough to send anything more than a G2 horse. When Winx is gone, these trainers are going to farm the Cox Plate and it won't be with their best horses. Why would you want a shorter straight if it's preventing Winx from winning by further?
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:38 pm |
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NPG319
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:39 am Posts: 2497 Location: South Australia
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
qwsa wrote: I disagree about your comments that the european races will lose their prestige, these races are what make great stallions, and stallions are where the money is. I don't think European trainers will ever start taking their best horses to run in Australia, Hong Kong etc, although I do agree that the prize money here should be higher. But, the horses that are travelling to Australia and other countries, are horses that are not capable of winning group ones in Europe, Banbatle could not win a group one in the UK for example. With horses like this they will continue taking to Australia and the likes because they can have a chance in group ones with higher prize money, but the best horses will stay in Europe and target the big races here still.
The Winx debate I find interesting because any comment that disagrees with her being the best horse in the world is met with such a defensive argument from those that think she is that it stops any serious debate. Any comment to the effect of saying her competition is not the best in the world is met with critisism and claims that we are trying to knock her, but that simply isnt the case. She might be the best horse in the world, but to say it in such a clear manner as Australian fans do is ludicrous, I must say the front cover of the paper talking about Matt Chapmans comment of Cracksman being better than her, that said 'Is he serious..' annoyed me, the suggestion from Australian fans that its laughable to suggest Cracksman could beat her, of course its not. She has won 29 races in a row, which is incredible, the fitness, durability, heart of the horse is amazing, the training performance is amazing. But the point about the lack of world class competition is a valid one, I dont think that any one of her 29 wins hass been a performance better than anything we've seen by Cracksman, Roaring Lion, Enable..., and this is how the world rankings are decided, the best performance, even if it is only in one race.
I am not denying that she may be the best horse in the world, but I do think its a shame that we will never know just how good she is because she has never been challenged, she has beaten a good horse in Benbatl comfortably by a couple of lengths, but there are a number of horses in Europe that could also do this. I very much doubt the owners will ever have a horse like this again, and I think if you have a horse capable of being the best in the world, and winning the biggest races in the world, you should take the chance and try to win these races, and beat the best horses in the world. The reason why is that the Brits dismiss Australian racing. Black Caviar won at Ascot beating the best sprinters Europe had to offer and pretty much did it running on two legs when she injured herself during the race - there are plenty out there that still don't rate BC or her Ascot win. Winx could run at Ascot and win by 10 lengths but there will be Brits who'll write off the win with some excuse, so you can see why Aussies get their back up. Take Merchant Navy for example - wins at Ascot - in Australia it has done stuff all - it won a 3yo G1 sprint and that's it. Couldn't win the Newmarket Handicap at Flemington carrying 52kg. Because it's now won at Ascot - it's gonna sit in the paddock all it's life, breeding. Winx and BC would have brained Merchant Navy - so where do you rule the form line through Merchant Navy's Ascot win? People outside of Oz don't realise how fast Winx runs a 6f race or runs her last 6f sectionals and the ones that do dismiss it because "it's on those fast Australians tracks". Her owners contemplated running her in The Everest this year but stuck to the Cox Plate path - she would have won the Everest this year because it was a bog track and she loves it wet. I wanted her to run at Ascot but looking at it - even if she did win there - the British racing public wouldn't have taken her win seriously and would it enhance her breeding credentials? Probably not. So why spend all that money to get there and win a race that isn't worth that much in comparison to Australian prize money. The Derby will always be 'The Derby' but what's prestigous about a gelding winning a G1 at 4yo? Owners dictate where their horse runs and considering most owners are in it for the money, it will be your good 4 and 5yo horses that will start coming out because there is two months worth of excellent prize money on offer - and they might be G3 and G2 horses at the moment but give it time and it will be your mature G1 horses.
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Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 am |
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Tomas
Group 2 winner
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:26 am Posts: 812
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
_________________ ...Tomas Night Australia
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Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:32 pm |
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WesleyNaude
Selling plater
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:32 pm Posts: 4
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![Post Post](./styles/acidtech_tiger/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif) Re: Winx
I don't think Brits disrespect Australian Sprinters. In fact a lot of Foreign Sprinters run in European sprints on a regular basis. I think Brits don't respect your middle distance and staying horses. This is because your schedule is highly favoured towards sprinters. There is also concern of too many Group 1 races in your country in general. The European racing program as a whole dictates the breeding and not the other way around. The horses that win the Group 1s in Europe are usually the best horses and thus are retired early being lightly raced. There seems to be a fascination in the Southern Hemisphere (South Africa, Australia) with Group 1 Handicaps which means some horses winning group 1s aren't group 1 horses. The tracks in Britain are also more testing, more varied and IMO a more fair test of ability. Long back straights and long home straights means the horses can settle, wind up and accelerate properly which means more horses get into the race. Tracks like Moonee valley favour horses that corner well and have short bursts. There is no hope for a horse four lengths back to make up ground in the home stretch. Not saying Winx has a short burst but the tracks she runs on in Australia don't test for sustained finishes and there are hardly any stretch battles. The tracks in Australia have 1.5F to 2.5F Home Stretch's and in Britain/Europe most home Stretches range From 2F to 3.5F. I always hear people talk about the ground when a European horse loses in a foreign country when IMO the length of the stretch is mainly the problem. For example when Happily ran stone last in the Breeders Cup Juvenile fillies Turf at Del Mar. It wasn't because of poor ability but because there was literally a wall of Horses in front of her with a furlong to go. Another example would be Tepin in the Breeders Cup Mile in 2015 at Keeneland. She beat the Favourite Make believe by 4.5 lengths but it's hard to believe that she was just that superior. She was successful at Ascot winning by 0.5 lengths against a stronger field but I just couldn't see her opening with a gap and winning as easy as she did at Keeneland. I am using an American example as their tracks home stretches are of similiar range to Australian tracks.The second to last thing I want to bring up is the level of competition. The reason European horses are held in such high regard is because they are the ones that travel overseas to other countries and take on the best the world has to offer. These horses that travel are usually the second rate Group 1 winners, Group 2 and Group 3 horses. They have done this on multiple occasions. There is occasionally the top horse that makes the trip I.e Enable For the Breeders Cup Turf. They do extremely well overseas and those races that they compete in are afterthoughts as their main targets are in Europe. This is not a knock on Australian horses, I am just pointing out the reasons as to why Brits and other European might get offended when their horses aren't considered the best in the world by international organisations or by international competitors and hence why they feel like other countries must prove there worth in Europe especially from a Mile upwards. The last thing I want bring up is the fact that as I mentioned earlier that the racing in Europe shapes the breed and thus it's big business as it would be profitable to win the most prestigious races in order to increase their stud value as it proves their worth on the track and that they have exceptional ability to pass on to their offspring. P.S I am not European/British. I am South African and this is just my assessment of the racing world. Feel free to correct me on any factual mistakes. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just realize the quality of European horses and do not feel that they are overrated in any way.
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Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 pm |
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