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anubisrich wrote:

With the greatest of courtesy to Australian posters none of their horses can start to compete on an all time list. Their thoroughbred breeding history is so short and as such, unreliable. To see Black Caviar fans knocking the horses Frankel raced against was frankly embarrassing.

For me greatness is consistency. Consistency is the best guide to form because in one race you can have things drop perfectly and see the others not perform and be flattered by the result. Racing on at 4 is also a factor, because good performance against your peers limits your potential opposition.

I also strongly weight recent performances over ones from the past. A lot of dodgy stuff went on in the past, training methods were hit and miss to say the least and in reality, it's only in the last 30 years that any sort of consistency across trainers can be found.

Lastly, and most importantly, you have to learn to trust your eye. We've all watched hundreds if not thousands of horse races, when you see something impressive, like Frankel breezing past Cirrus Des Aigles on heavy ground without coming off the bridle and making another extremely consistent G1 performer over multiple distances look like a handicapper, then you have to take notice. So if we're doing top 5s:

1) Frankel - consistent and devastating over 3 years
2) Brigadier Gerard - extremely consistent even when carrying weight, had his race record not been so long ago we could trust the form a lot better.
3) Dancing Brave - his two defeats were extremely unlucky and the reason Frankel was unbeaten was because these mistakes were learned from. His Arc win was amazing.
4) Goldikova - phenomenally consistent and competing at a peak era for milers. Lightning turn of foot in her earlier years she was probably campaigned for a season too long but still performed at an incredibly high level
5) Ribot - another that would benefit from having raced in more recent times, multiple seasons and a great stallion record point to one of the greats.

New Approach, Sea The Stars and similar would be in the top 10, limited by their shortened careers.

Author:	DocHay [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Luke Wilson The Prophet
This mans signature after Frankel won the Royal Lodge, " Frankel, better than Dancing Brave" Its impossible to prove and I dont know if he was better than Dancing Brave because he was before my time, but it was a bold statement and turned out to be well justified whether he was right or wrong. I said at the time he was the best 2yo id ever seen, when Queally gave him daylight that day at Ascot, he inhaled the field in a matter of strides and you just dont see moves like that from a horse, never mind a 2yo, in any race, it was like Secretariat in the Preakness. As much as I thought of Frankel as a 2yo, he has gone on to become greater than you could ever imagine and for a horse to enter the greatest ever debate is testament enough to how good they are. Its a never ending debate and there will never be a winner but despite his conservative campaigning, he has earned his place in the debate and there might not be another horse in the next 50 years who will achieve that.

Author:	pjrhodes1970 [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Dancing Brave was an incredable horse BUT was beaten on 2 Occasions which damages his claims against Frankel as the greatest I personally think Frankel is the most complete thoroughbred i have ever seen some of the greats Sea The Stars -------- was a great but never as eyecatching as Frankel Sea Bird ----------- was a class 3yo but would not make my top 5 Tudor Minstrel ---------was top class but not an all time great IMO Brigadier Gerard --------- was awsome won 17 from 18 and 12 G1's abernat -------------was a superstar sprinter won 14 from 17 multiple G1 winner Mill Reef -----------was a serious horse won 12 from 14 in 71 won debry-eclipse-KG-Arc Ribot -------was a machine he won 16 from 16 the arc in 55 & 56 an awsome talent has to be regarded as 1 of the greats Vaguely Noble ------------ was decent but not outstanding won 6 from 9 Black Caviar ---------------22 from 22 awsome multiple g1 winner and would be second on my list Makybe Diva---------------all time great stayer race record of 36: 15- 4-3 3x melbourne cups in a row My top 5 1)Frankel 2)Black Caviar 3)Ribot 4)Dancing Brave 5)Abernat

Author:	anubisrich [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
With the greatest of courtesy to Australian posters none of their horses can start to compete on an all time list. Their thoroughbred breeding history is so short and as such, unreliable. To see Black Caviar fans knocking the horses Frankel raced against was frankly embarrassing. For me greatness is consistency. Consistency is the best guide to form because in one race you can have things drop perfectly and see the others not perform and be flattered by the result. Racing on at 4 is also a factor, because good performance against your peers limits your potential opposition. I also strongly weight recent performances over ones from the past. A lot of dodgy stuff went on in the past, training methods were hit and miss to say the least and in reality, it's only in the last 30 years that any sort of consistency across trainers can be found. Lastly, and most importantly, you have to learn to trust your eye. We've all watched hundreds if not thousands of horse races, when you see something impressive, like Frankel breezing past Cirrus Des Aigles on heavy ground without coming off the bridle and making another extremely consistent G1 performer over multiple distances look like a handicapper, then you have to take notice. So if we're doing top 5s: 1) Frankel - consistent and devastating over 3 years 2) Brigadier Gerard - extremely consistent even when carrying weight, had his race record not been so long ago we could trust the form a lot better. 3) Dancing Brave - his two defeats were extremely unlucky and the reason Frankel was unbeaten was because these mistakes were learned from. His Arc win was amazing. 4) Goldikova - phenomenally consistent and competing at a peak era for milers. Lightning turn of foot in her earlier years she was probably campaigned for a season too long but still performed at an incredibly high level 5) Ribot - another that would benefit from having raced in more recent times, multiple seasons and a great stallion record point to one of the greats. New Approach, Sea The Stars and similar would be in the top 10, limited by their shortened careers.

Author:	pjrhodes1970 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
anubisrich wrote: With the greatest of courtesy to Australian posters none of their horses can start to compete on an all time list. Their thoroughbred breeding history is so short and as such, unreliable. To see Black Caviar fans knocking the horses Frankel raced against was frankly embarrassing. For me greatness is consistency. Consistency is the best guide to form because in one race you can have things drop perfectly and see the others not perform and be flattered by the result. Racing on at 4 is also a factor, because good performance against your peers limits your potential opposition. I also strongly weight recent performances over ones from the past. A lot of dodgy stuff went on in the past, training methods were hit and miss to say the least and in reality, it's only in the last 30 years that any sort of consistency across trainers can be found. Lastly, and most importantly, you have to learn to trust your eye. We've all watched hundreds if not thousands of horse races, when you see something impressive, like Frankel breezing past Cirrus Des Aigles on heavy ground without coming off the bridle and making another extremely consistent G1 performer over multiple distances look like a handicapper, then you have to take notice. So if we're doing top 5s: 1) Frankel - consistent and devastating over 3 years 2) Brigadier Gerard - extremely consistent even when carrying weight, had his race record not been so long ago we could trust the form a lot better. 3) Dancing Brave - his two defeats were extremely unlucky and the reason Frankel was unbeaten was because these mistakes were learned from. His Arc win was amazing. 4) Goldikova - phenomenally consistent and competing at a peak era for milers. Lightning turn of foot in her earlier years she was probably campaigned for a season too long but still performed at an incredibly high level 5) Ribot - another that would benefit from having raced in more recent times, multiple seasons and a great stallion record point to one of the greats. New Approach, Sea The Stars and similar would be in the top 10, limited by their shortened careers. glad you have ribot in there he was awsome

Author:	anubisrich [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Yeah he doesn't get a lot of love but his second Arc win was ridic. I also love all the stories about him at stud too

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Author:	Ubar02 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
All time top 5 in the world IMO 1. Frankel 2. The brigadier 3. Dubai millenium 4. Nijinsky 5. Shergar/ mill reef/ sea bird etc. Best horses from other countries- secretariat USA, Ribot Italy, danedream Germany, orfevre Japan, phar lap Australia but that was so long ago it's slightly dubious, not convinced by Aussie racing myself either tbh.

Author:	pjrhodes1970 [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Ubar02 wrote: All time top 5 in the world IMO 1. Frankel 2. The brigadier 3. Dubai millenium 4. Nijinsky 5. Shergar/ mill reef/ sea bird etc. Best horses from other countries- secretariat USA, Ribot Italy, danedream Germany, orfevre Japan, phar lap Australia but that was so long ago it's slightly dubious, not convinced by Aussie racing myself either tbh. oh ubar youv'e opened up a can of worms there with our aussie friends no BC or M.Diva

Author:	Persian Punch [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Very tough to compare different generations but on achievements its hard to look past a few. Ribot looked a terrific horse winning TWO Arc's and finished unbeaten. It's difficult not to include Brigadier Gerrard as he really should have been unbeaten and won countless G1's, what also add's to his appeal is the fact that he also beat the fantastic Mill Reef. The same has to be said for Frankel, if he wasnt about then its easy to suggest that Excelebration would have won SEVEN Group 1 races (including the St James's Palace Stakes as he surely would have beat Zoffany if not "racing" Frankel. To then see Frankel demolish him by 11 lengths says alot. I also thinks it's tough for sprinters to make their mark but thats something Dayjur was able to do. If not jumping a shadow (or two) in the States he would no doubt of won nearly every major sprint between France and the US. Others to mention have to be Seabird although it would have been nice to have seen him race abit longer, Nijinsky who was very unlucky not to add the Arc to his CV after disappointing in the Leger, and obviously Dancing Brave who as we all know was unlucky in the Derby and only managed 4th in the Breeders Cup Turf. All in all my list would be.... 1. Brigadier Gerrard 2. Ribot 3. Frankel 4. Mill Reef 5. Dayjur

Author:	Ubar02 [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Nijinsky was hardly a disappointment in the leger! And Paul, I don't personally rate sprinters, or the Melbourne cup for producing greats, I personally think its slightly overrated but being a handicap it's always going to struggle to regularly attract the best horses, look at Dunaden they're calling him a superstar out there but over here hes just a consistent placed 1m4 performer but nowhere near the top.

Author:	GS63 [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
The older you get, the more horses you can bring into the equation (and I'm quite old! ). For me, both Shergar and Brigadier Gerard should be in the top 5, no argument. Shergar won the Derby by 10 lengths eased down by Walter Swinburn after all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhKYNWrIm6w

Author:	Persian Punch [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Sorry Ubar, I meant Nijinsky was unlucky not to add a Arc to his CV and was then disappointing in the Champion Stakes, too much coffe and not enough sleep!!

Author:	TysonM [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
Oh well I guess it's time to stick up for Black Caviar again. anubisrich wrote: With the greatest of courtesy to Australian posters none of their horses can start to compete on an all time list. Their thoroughbred breeding history is so short and as such, unreliable. A short breeding history has nothing to do with whether a horse should be considered an all time great. This is pointless. anubisrich wrote: For me greatness is consistency. Consistency is the best guide to form because in one race you can have things drop perfectly and see the others not perform and be flattered by the result. You mean if a horse has won say 22 from 22, 21 of those at stake level, 12 of those in Group 1's anubisrich wrote: Racing on at 4 is also a factor, because good performance against your peers limits your potential opposition. Winning races at 2, 3, 4 and 5 anubisrich wrote: I also strongly weight recent performances over ones from the past. A lot of dodgy stuff went on in the past, training methods were hit and miss to say the least and in reality, it's only in the last 30 years that any sort of consistency across trainers can be found. Don't even need to explain this one do I? I probably need to say that I don't rate her as the best horse I've ever seen. But not to consider her is borderline foolish.

Author:	pjrhodes1970 [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
I Agree she has to be up there with the greats Baffles me when people say she has beat little & should come over here and see if she could regually beat our sprinters FACT Aussie sprinters have been superior to UK sprinters for years maybe over 10 years and if people went deeper into her form she has beat some world class sprinters just saw a video of frankels maiden he beat nathaniel Colour Vision & Genius Beast on debut

Author:	Ubar02 [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
When you consider the sheer number of great european horses over the years I have to say BC does not even come into my equations for greatest ever- the golden era for racing was the early 70s.

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Author:	HurricaneRun [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Luke Wilson The Prophet
I agree Black Caviar is not the best ever but she is up there. Consistently destroying fields in AUS, whose sprinters make ours look like ponies. And in the Jubilee she won even with muscular injuries - she is a phenomenal horse. Frankel is the greatest ever, no doubt in my mind that he would have laughed at Brigadier the way he laughed at Excelebration so many times - don't forget Excelebration is an outstanding horse who would be on some peoples list if Frankel did not exist because he would have won so many group 1s!! Ouija Board would be on my list - unbelievable mare, loved her from the very beginning, backed her heavily for the oaks and never looked back. she was a superstar.