As I have stated I'm happy to carry on the way things are but agree Mark needs more League
trainers to come forward and stress their opinion if you are happy or the way breeding is in SO7
would put you off on entering the league.

I know most casual players if not all could not care less about the league I dont know Mark's opinion on
the league maybe its just a total headache for him or maybe he is keen to see it continually succeed.

But i guess when you put the crazy amount of time into something you just need to know if there is a
future in it.

We have one more season of SO6 in March after that I can see a huge gap between this one and the
next one especially if there are more people who are in Josh's boat without volunteers the league cant happen
anyway.

If there was to be no future league you would just be playing the game for fun and no matter how brilliant the
the game is any game really they always have a fairly short shelf life.

I Dont envy Mark as he is in the middle but has always seemed to have come to a happy medium in the past.

I love the game and one things for sure I hope to be playing the next 5 versions no matter what happens please
god.

Its the only game I play and has been for years

I don't play the leagues because of having not much time on my hands. I have played SO7 on and off since it's release and I like everything this game offers. For me and I have said this before this is the best SO game out there. I love the difficulty in breeding that unbeatable horse, and I for once don't win every Group race that I enter which is realistic. So, I think it should stay as it is but I don't mind a little tweak here and there

I am a league player and run the online league with Leon who does the tech on TOM.

I will try and put my view on SO7 and Breeding and the league

The problem with SO6 and league play was the way the breeding allowed the trainer using ttf files and doing quick rapid breeding and seasons I don't know how many seasons Josh or Paul or any top trainer can fly through a day to get top horses but you can tell by the league the difference between those who had time and rapidly flew through seasons and the guys like Doug for instance who played slowly.

This is a big disadvantage to Doug and players like him and even me who would use a few rapid seasons about two weeks before league started to try and be competitive which I managed but new players would see after just week 1 of the league how far behind the top horses the top trainers and would stop playing the League.

I have only played 5 seasons of a Jumps game so I only had a few seasons of breeding and must say I got donkeys and its not looking good if you are not improving the next generation of horses then Breeding will become pointless the horse you buy at Auctions and 2yo sales are worse than the horses you given to start with and the horses in other trainers Studs look no better either so for a trainer like Josh I can see his point.

THE ANSWER

What should be the answer is No ttf Files once you put your horse to stud it should be able to breed get to a age and die that should be it. It should not be able to transfer to a new Game keep it in the same save game this will stop flying through seasons gives trainers like Doug and other players a chance to get competitive in the league also keep non league players playing like they do this idea of transferring horses between games in IMO is wrong you should play the game like a real sim.

Then Mark can make tweaks to the breeding so improvements in the off spring happens and the horses get better then everyone is playing the same way be you a league Player or not.


Gray

in terms of the ttf file and getting rid of it that horse has now bolted you cant stop it now
as its been in play since the start of SO7 mainly kept because non league players want the
options of moving their best horses around.

I honestly believe those who have the more time will always do better in the league its always
been that way and I think it always will be there are also trainers who do have the time but dont
want to put the time in I dont think that top trainers should be penalized because they put more time into it.

Gray it would scare you the amount of time it takes to reach the level that Josh Steve John thunderspark etc
put in to get where they are and i always was a level behind them I know how much time i put in with SO6
and it was scary so i cant imagine how much more time they put into it.

I have already made my mind up if there was any kind of system reboot in so7 i wont be starting again in terms
of the league I just could not face the thought of starting from scratch again.

I do try and have always looked at things with an open mind and do respect the situation other trainers are in like
Doug for instance and Stu.

As we have discussed time and time again there does not seem to be an answer I dont see the ideas suggested being
the answer as I say those who put the time in will end up with the best horses ttf or not and i was in favor of getting rid
of it if you remember suddenly saying lest ditch it now which would mean a complete reboot does not seem fair.

it took me 5 or 6 years to get to being a mid to higher tier trainer even at that i never reached the top well only once when the
case that most of the top trainers did not turn up who we know had superior horses. John's horses were a million miles ahead of
mine in so6 and will be next season yet those mid to top tier trainers and now seen as the bad guys that are ruining the league for
everyone else what people cant seem to fathom with them not around someone will still be dominant.

a bug bear of mine has always been making serious changes to anything after something has been started anyway nuff
said I think i will forget about the league and keep on enjoying the game.

Firstly, I am a league player and I have been playing Starters Orders since SO4 days. I didn't join the league until I was starting to get bored with the game, joining the league gave me a new challenge and extended the longevity of a game I had mastered.

Secondly, I have absolutely no interest in horse racing in real life, to me this is just a game and like any game you want to get better at it and reach the next level. In this case I want to be able to win some entry level races but progress up to G1 races and obviously this implies improving the ability of the horses at the same time.

In previous incarnations of the game I could always see some way forward with breeding, occasionaly it was two steps forward and one step back, but a progression none the less. So far in SO7 I can't see that way forward, for my enjoyment of the game, breeding is just too random. I don't expect every horse to be like their parents as in SO6 but if I breed 50 mares\stallions of equal ability I want about 3 foals each season to at least achieve their full potential, (this might only be 85%) but the realised potential should catch up to the absolute potential more often. At the moment I find this happens to one horse every 2 seasons.

I am retired and have plenty of time on my hands and so far have played just under 100 seasons of gameplay, and I know that SO7 is still in Beta but I feel I need the challenge of the league to keep my interest in SO7.

If I was being cynical, I have paid my money for the game, so does it matter to the SO7 team if I put the game aside.



In answer to Grays suggestion, I don't think banning ttf files stops trainers from zipping through seasons. As I said I have already played about 100 seasons of gameplay and they were not all the result of using ttf files. There will always be a gulf between those trainers like myself who can spend dozens of hours a week breeding and the casual player who only plays a few hours a week.

my point exactly

Also the question should be would it really be fair for someone who puts 90 mins a week having the same chance of getting
G1 league horses as someone who puts 90 hours a week in if thats the direction of the league fair enough on the vibes and
posts seen it seems to be that way and that fair enough the thing doing my head in is we continue to go round in circles and nothing
gets decided or more importantly gets done and people continue to moan years later

No matter what way you shake the tree someone will still be at the top and there will always be a gap between the top and bottom.


no harm done and no disrespect intended

I 100 percent disagree with people who say the only way to the top is by playing the most hours, it's a strategy game and the more u play the more u pick up little things. Over the last two years i've not played the flat much on SO6 but i've been able to stay near the top with smart breeding , u pick things up as u go along that u can use going forward. I think the flat side of breeding in SO7 is perfect, it's challenging without being stupid and i've only played 1 game and got through about 30 seasons and it's still enormously fun playing. I've only got 30 horses in my league barn and i'm just about to start a new game because my schedule needed redoing, not got enough 1.4+ races in it and if it wasn't for that I would just have kept playing. If we never had a league in SO7 I could keep playing this game for many years and still have fun.

Starting to sound like an AA meeting - Hi, my name's Doug and I too am a league player.

I would just like to point out how much the league promotes SO6 and hopefully 7 with the foot print we have created on youtube.

Personally I have bought SO7 and haven't downloaded it yet - I'm still playing SO6 with the hope of having my best ever league season.

I think the more time you put into the game the better your chances are of success but it would be cool from a league point of view if a casual trainer enters a G1 and they create a boilover by winning it because they had a bit of luck with the breeding of one horse - just like Takeover Target which was mentioned earlier - TT's next port of call was to become dog food but luckily was picked out and ended up at Ascot.

I think it goes without saying that all persistent league players - the G1 trainers or the 0-75 trainers pump a lot of time into their game.

I think there's one reason why u cant get shot of the ttf and that is if u into a 30+ season and u game totally crashes u would lose everything and that would be soul crushing if u a league player or non league player. Everyone should be saving their horses.

For SO6 and in answer to your question gray, I would say on the days I can play the game, and assuming I am racing a stable of say 30 horses per generation over three generations so 90 all in. I can fly through say 2 or 3 seasons a day. I get maybe two of those days per week, and usually it takes only two days to cook a new batch of horses for trial. Trials generally take two weeks per code in and around life, each trial has the aforementioned 3 generations and the existing stock of exports. I spend so much more time trialing than flying through seasons.

My jump game is on season 138. My flat game is on 16, though it was at 152 when I restarted it, things get really glitchy when you get passed 120 seasons so the jump game is due a restart too, but seems pointless right now. Since the league became a focus I figure I have played 400 to 500 total seasons between all codes and countries. And before I even knew of the league I had likely played another 100.

And the formula for success is not just the tff, too much credence is given to that, indeed I am really only re-importing a few colts per every generation as so6 allows for breeding progression, so you want to go forward not backwards. Success comes from meticulously breeding the small details, sort of the point John was making, finding the right bits in the first place to put into the mixing bowl and a huge amount of time running trials, least it did for me.

Since you edited the original, and still have concerns, I'm going to quote out and see what I can offer to help. I agree SO7 is more random, but not that it is unworkably so. I do share concerns with house studs getting offers, but am not far enough in my flat game to know if that is valid yet.



The game is still far better than real life. Look at Miesque. She was not just any G1 mare, and was considered a success as a broodmare. Sure you know Kingmambo, hard to miss Miesque's Son. She had 14 foals, only six of them won a race. SO7 seems far better than that. Breeding just never has worked the way you think. The goal though as I mentioned before though is not just realism but fun, I think we agree?

Would you have bred to this horse if you saw these stats in game?
https://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=334449&registry=T&rbt=TB
Miesque's best two sons were sired by "that guy that never won a graded race".
He sired a few other horses too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Prospector
Her Storm Cat filly never managed to win. Not that Storm Cat was a dud though, of course.



I hope you didn't take that as what I was suggesting? Yes, more random does mean also a better chance than in SO6 of a better horse off a mediocre stud, as much as it means less consistent great horses off great studs. Think of it as a nice newbie surprise if it happens. And it isn't totally random. Please pay attention to the usual things like distance and going preferences.

I do think one big issue is the way the stud lists display the stats. The way Mark calculated them produces stats that improperly inflate the numbers of a stud that has many runners and studs that have only 1-2 good runners vs consistent production. The first makes it hard to sort, the second makes duds that don't improve mares appear high in the lists. Breeders solved this with some stats already, which I posted to the BETA board along with explaining why Mark was using a misleading calculation (he is calculating by start of progeny not by runner, need by runner not by start stats).

I also watched a lot of races in season one of my game. When a couple horses retired to shed, I pounced. One of them produced a some nice foals for my third crop. That is one way to spot good prospects.

Here are some things to look at, even without the stats getting a better sort.

* sort stud lists by fee, on both progeny and stud record tabs - is better than current stats
* look at the top 10-20 studs on both
* sort by progeny runs, look at the bottom 10-20 on progeny screen, the ones with no progeny to race to see the value new studs

Now what to look for. First look at the studs race record. Were his earnings based on one or two big purse races, or listed stakes, and are the rest of the runs well out of the money? That may not be the best choice. Click on the best races won. Don't worry about G1! Was the stud a G2/G3 winner who was consistently in the money, and who may have beaten one of the other high priced studs in one or more starts? That one probably has better bars, or a higher potential and uneven bars. Back to Miesque, her dam sire was Prove Out, he would have looked like this in-game (2/1/0), not much in the way of earnings either. You'd probably ignore him, but he beat Secretariat in the Woodward, and did end up as Miesque's dam-sire. He was this horse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLMtpldjRTA

Also look at the game stud's progeny record. Are there a decent percentage of winners? (stat Mark needs!) Click on his best winners. Then click on their dams, and look at the dam's race record and progeny. Are his good horses off nice race win/place mares, or mares with many high quality foals already? Mares having litters makes the mare quality easy to see in SO7. If any of those mares are non-winners in handicaps or lower, then you see he can improve mares. If his good horses are from mares as good as him, he may not.

My first flat crop is racing. It was a small crop, and not that great. It is mid-May and I have the top 2 and 3 yr olds on my game, in season three.

The 3yo I bought at a weekly sale because her sire was a G2 game stud with stats that looked nice using the criteria above. Her dam had produced four foals who had ratings over 100 already. This filly just won the UAE Derby for me after winning the prep for it. 78% potential, 90% speed bars, and others solid bars. She's also #2 horse in game list right now too. She would have won more too but I didn't increase her run distance fast enough.

My 2yo may not stay top, but she has two listed race starts and two seconds and also nice bars (78% potential at 2, dam was around 35%, speed only 72% though). She'll make a fantastic first gen homebred broodmare though. The sire was *not* the top one listed in the game sort, but was a multi G1 winner that best met my criteria above. Dam was an 7 yr-old mare I claimed, but she had won a 90 handicap at 7 too! So a better than average claimer. And I got a good random roll and he did improve the mare.

That's what I do.

Also, don't sweat lower potentials early game. The effect of the potential bar in racing seems less in the early seasons. The game doesn't have good horses yet either. I suspect you are tossing too many you buy in those first five seasons. I race them. This doesn't take hours, but does take more research than cross best G1 to best G1 (which also is not a good bet in real life). It would help if the stats were displayed better. Hopefully Mark can help. I'm giving you a detailed response to see if you think what I do is too hard or too frustrating or too unfun for you. It is working though for me. I feel badly it is long, and hope I have not bored everyone. I apologize for length.



I haven't used the ttf file to breed in SO6 or SO7. I *do* cheat myself money by peeking and force-closing for betting if I run short. I don't even do that in all games, but I wanted to test the breeding, and that takes money to start fast. I am also distracted by reskinning the horses as a mod. Personal problem.

The competitive progeny ranking stat (AEI) and the winners from foals as a percentage are both invaluable as sorts. Neither are in game. Mark's model is great, but I think not giving people not used to studying pedigrees for breeding the better stats in the table sort it can cause some frustration. Number of G1 wins is not a good predictor like it was in SO6, which is better sim modelling too. But I can also see how that could be frustrating as an adjustment coming from SO6.

And I can break my view of SO7 down more simply.

I enjoy the game up to a point, but I enjoy the game much more because of the league. There will never be a AI challenge as great as the one offered by a human player. Someone like Paul for example who continues to set the bar so high. So without the league I do not see myself playing the game, and I do not see there being a league with the breeding on SO7 right now.

Why? - simple, no one likes to play and get beaten, we see that every year with the new trainers who quit within a matter of weeks, and everyone else not top tier blaming everything on tff file usage. My first league season I won only 2 races, but at least with SO6 breeding was consistent and progressive, so it was simply a matter of effort and approach, I reasoned the top trainers did not have any magic or skill not available to me and so when they hit the wall at the top, even if they had more time than me, I could catch up. Took me what, 3 seasons to hit the top tier and four to win the combined championship.

SO7 does not have progressive breeding, ok it does, but that progression path is subject to huge variations and randomness, and I utterly understand that is more realistic, but you might hit gold once but watch that horse die in the barn having never repeated the feat in his offspring, and your back to the first box on a game of snakes and ladders. So the few who have the time to really grind out thousands and thousands of horses will, in my view, be so much further ahead than everyone else in SO7, and what we already see in SO6 with people wanting the wins to be shared more evenly or just quiting, will be, again in my opinion, magnified to the point I doubt many will get a team together nor stick with it for long.

So I hate SO7 as I think it will kill the league and it is the league, or the prospect of one, that would make me love SO7. Tis a funny old world.

I was in on the ttf discussion before. I can see how removing it for league, or in total would help level the playing field. But I think there are enough good reasons to have it that more than one person have said here, that it stays.

But league breeders are also saying that ttf helps but isn't always a major factor in "getting there", always a factor in backing up progress though. So ttf tweaks are not a solution for league. And for us non league it is quite useful even if not used for breeding (back-up flat game horses that may like a jump, or vice versa).

The game DOES have a difficulty setting. It is there on the create game screen. Might I propose:

"Harder": Use the current breeding random result profile. Some of us like it.
"Normal": Tweak breeding results to be somewhat more consistent so it is less frustrating to players like newmarket. Make it "just work" more often, less real, more fun for some.
"Easier": Generous breeding results, higher early game potential bars across the board (game sires and player horses). Honestly I worry for the league players. I'd burn out. You want to churn 200 seasons for optimal results quickly? You want to "just play" and not think as a new to racing casual? Perfect setting.

Right now it feels like SO7 breeding is pegged at "hard", which is to taste for some, not others. "Fun" is a subjective measure. Let the player chose for breeding as well as bet ease/start horse quality chance. And current ("hard") may be too punishing to catch up/late start in league. Game has a difficulty setting, use it for breeding too?

I am not a league player, although I have aspirations to one day. Whether I win, or lose, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, it's more about the challenge and progression to become the best I can.

I personally like the current breeding system in SO7. In SO6 I found it was way to easy to breed top horses every season and dominate the game. In SO7 my best horses (highest earnings) have mostly come from the same Sire and his line, however every horse that is bred from that line is not guaranteed to go out there and win races, or even look good on the attribute bars, and that I do like.

Now the fact that my best horses have still come from that line makes me happy because I know I will at "some point" breed a horse of "good quality", or even produce a "Star" but the probability of a future star horse being bred from the line is a lot less than SO6, and to me this is much more realistic.

Like in real life, just because a Father, or Mother, are great at something doesn't mean their Son or Daughter will be good at the same thing. We shouldn't expect the same from every bred horse, they all have their quirks and characters that can cause them to not be good race horses, even if physically they look great. I think that should be taken into account with the somewhat perceived random breeding in SO7.

I can wholeheartedly say that when I have a world beater of a horse in SO7 I value it so much more now compared to SO6, and that I really do like. Heck, if I knew I could breed a Frankel every year in SO7 I would get real bored and probably stop playing.

I absolutely love that my Sires can breed and create AI horses for other trainers. Yes this can stop me winning races in the future, but in my eyes this makes the game so much more competitive, and there have been some fantastic races with these horses, big thumbs up from me. There is currently one of these player/AI bred horses dominating my game (won 1000 Guineas, 2nd in Oaks and won St Leger. I can take satisfaction in that I was part of that horses achievements, and I hope one day I can topple it from the top and eventually breed from it one day!

Overall I am very happy with SO7, there some bugs still about but this is still BETA and if we want a better game we need to provide insight into these and keep giving ideas to Mark.

I concur with this idea.

It would be a way to try to appease all the playing styles, whether you play specifically for league, or enjoy the realistic challenge of a single player campaign.

I am not sure how much work this would involve for Mark.

Good idea.