I should preface my remarks by stating that while I have played SO2, (and StableMasters2) extensively, I have never played SO3; some of this may be old ground to most of you. Nevertheless.

I can't help noticing that the SO4 jockeys appear to have all been to some sort of Training School or other; one that I would immediately close down, as its primary objective seems to have been to teach them how to lose any races in which they are riding for Orlando Beetle as easily as possible.

The best and most common way in which they do this is by riding up into the nearest available pocket of slow moving, hopeless horses and remaining there until it's far too late to do anything. Should no such pocket be available, they seem to have been trained to contrive one.

Example: you instruct your chosen jockey to race handy, or at even pace. Usually they will tuck in on the rails behind the lead horse and sit there motionless until some other animals have come alongside; the leader loses momentum as they approach the final two furlongs and your own animal is conveniently stuck; another victory for the School of Idiot Jockeys!

[It's even easier with hold up horses as you can imagine, particularly in large fields where there may be no access to the rail, but there's always huge impassable walls of horses in the middle of the course.]

If all else fails, and, due to an unhappy combination of circumstances they find themselves with a clear run approching the 2f pole, then they do absolutely nothing until all the other horses with a chance of winning have been given a 2-3 length advantage. Not to mention the deliberate and systematic pulling, (of their horse I mean, although you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise), and making the horse run backwards.

Example: I had grown bored with one of my purchases & ran it in a seller; the distance was perfect, the going almost so and my horse had at least a stone advantage over the others; 13/8 fav. I instructed Mr. Saunders, (although it could have been any of them), to ride at even pace. Which he did, straight onto the rail & behind a pocket of the very slowest horses in the race right at the very back. Where he remained until about half-way, whereupon he dropped my horse a further 3-4 lengths back, (and about 30 lengths behind the leaders). I thought it must be injured to be honest and preseed the space bar; it finished 3rd. "Even pace" he says afterwards, "got the distance well"

Well that's it; perhaps it will become less frustrating when I have better animals to work with? I'm also thinking of experimenting with the "prefer middle of course" instruction in appropriate races; anyone else tried that yet?

Oh! I said 'horsepersonship' but I can't see any female jockeys; are they barred? It's nice to see old Darley still in the saddle though and to see that Phil Makin can still do 7 stone; (he wishes). What with that and the miserly prize money it's a bit like playing "Starters Orders - Medieval Version"

Yes l can in some aspects see exactly what you mean but in some cases like in real life if there is no pace and it turns into a sprint no matter how good your horse is it may not have the gears, but can understand in other ways. As in when they are stuck behind other horses not getting a run and when they get a gap last furlong they still seem to run out of energy as if they had been sprinting for a furlong

Personally I think their are too many 'hampered' horses in SO4 at the moment than in real life, the jockeys tend to make the wrong choice of up the inner instead of safer wider route. I do think Mark has tweaked the jockeys AI in the 1.012 patch as their seems to be less interference occurring during the race.

Their should more chance of horses getting hampered in a short race with lots of runners but it seems to happen just as much in middle distance and stayers races.

I've found exactly this. SO3 was the worst for this. So far I have found that the jockeys in SO4 are better for pulling the horse into the clear i.e not deliberately running into pockets of horses but worse for not driving the horse until it's too late. I had a horse which was in the lead in a 5f maiden, got to the 2f pole, 2 lengths ahead, 1f pole 1/2 length ahead, 0.5f pole 3/4 length down. The jockey at this point starts pushing and the horse manages to quicken to get within 1/4 of a length of the leader. The Jockey says 'The horse will be suited by further, we just didn't have to pace to get into the race'

THEY WERE LEADING AT THE 2F POLE!! Very frustrating! But hopefully something that's being looked at once the main issues with SO4 are dealt with.

I tend to ride all my horses myself now. Although I just can't get the hang of the jumps. Also SO4 is very different to SO3 to ride in.

the jumps i bought a cheap old horse and practice with it in races, Its about reactions for me if your coming in on blue stride then i take a pull to try keep the horse on its feet if it hits it, if green i tend to ride the horse at it and it usually 'pings' it. practice practice me thinks!

Everything you describe with horse's and jockey behaviour is so true and not as unrealistic as you may think,

Just try standing inside any bookmakers on any given day of the week and you hear the exact same stories and ran/ he had a clear run/ what's he pulling it for/ Go Go GO for F sake No no no/ 6L clear 2 furlong's out why is he taking a peek and pulling the horse !!!!!!!!. the list goes on even further than the game can

Ah yes, but those jockeys will often come back to the owners/trainers and give a reason e.g. horse didn't feel right. The horse was tiring badly/ couldn't quicken. After all there is no point in pushing out a horse that can't win in a handicap because it mark will increase, whereas if you push but not galvanise it the horse won't be exhausted and it's mark won't go up too much. Or even the trainer/owner could be saving the horse for another day and telling the jockey not to do this.

In the game the jockey deliberately goes into the gap, doesn't push or pulls the horse back at stupid times with no real explanation. Like I said, I usually get told the horse didn't have the pace for the race even though it was leading or running on well at some point near the end of the race!

It is not realistic. In real life the better jockeys may make the odd error of judgment and may sometimes get boxed in, but these guys would not only be out of a job, they would be warned off. And I don't want a game that replicates the frustrations of real life anyway.

I've been thinking about this aspect of the game quite a lot today. This is a micro-management game after all. The very best of such games, (and this series is certainly amongst the very best). should have a considerable degree of challenging complexities and of arcane mysteries which initially confound the novice but which have their own fathomable locgic and consistency. To come to understand, master and manipulate to one's own advantage such challenges is one of the rewards of playing such games.

Starters Orders has these; consider coming to terms with the assessment of the appropriate race tactics to apply to each of your horses, or the current optimum distance for your 2-yr-olds, or the question of appropriate headgear and surgical procedures for the more temperamental animals. Consider the apparently simple question of placement.

However, what we have with this 'riding into pockets' business is something quite different; it is entirely random, has no predictability and no solution. There is nothing at all that can be done to prevent or minimise the likelihood of it happening. One is powerless. And therein certainly lies the source of my own considerable frustration with it. Might as well just play a bloody dice game.

It's a question of the modelling of the race sequences of course; a question of how the programme that controls the jockeys' behaviour has been written. Coppelledstreets is quite correct to identify the 'head for the rail at all costs' instinct as a primary cause of the problem. and it's clearly been a problem is SO3. Also, I think I recall a reply from Mark shortly after the release of this version suggesting that the 'sitting motionless' problem might need a tweak. Quite.

The race graphics are wonderful, but watching too many of the races is a stressful rather than pleasureable occupation. I've said enough.

Err...except to say that riding the horses myself is not an option; I'm the sort of person who finds using a roll of sellotape challenging.

I know exactly what you mean! I have noticed there are a LOT of fallers and even more jockeys restraining their horses on the rail at the beginning of the race, therefore causing the fall of an innocent horse who happens to be behind this quickly stopping idiot.

In addition, having ridden in a fair few races now I've noticed that at the end of the race jockeys randomly pull out in front of you and there is no stewards enquiry's, in fact I don't think I've seen a single one but there have been plenty of incidences where my horses have been badly hampered, enough to have cost them the race and NOTHING has been done. As I said before the release, this definitely needs looking at. But the game in general is a big improvement on SO3 and Mark has done a brilliant job considering how much he was being hassled for it by the end!

SuperCat; I hope that nothing that I say is taken as being anything other than constructive; I've also had countless hours of pleasure from the game.

Perhaps SO5 could have a button that allows the trainer to lodge an objection? There would have to be a fee payable of course, probably equivalent to the price of a double malt for Colonel Wittering, {the chief steward}

Oh no, not at all. I was more thinking what I was saying could be taken as offensive (I'm not really sure now, it was after a long day doing AS maths revision!) But I totally agree with what you said. I was trying to push the point before the release that this was a major issue with the game that significantly reduces playability.

That sounds like an excellent idea! Ha ha, I think he'd definitely go for that every time! Maybe you should post that in development discussion, I think lots of people would go for being able to object some results due to interference.