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 Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season 
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Post Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
Apologies if this has been mentioned in another thread (I've been doing some game testing today, everything on default, patch 0.113)...

I'm finding that top class 2yo horses are being retired to stud after their 2yo season far too frequently. To test it, I ran through 12 seasons, and found the following:

Dewhurst Stakes - NINE out of the twelve Dewhurst winners during my test game were retired to stud immediately, without returning for a 3yo season
Racing Post Trophy - SEVEN out of twelve winners retired to stud immediately
Middle Park Stakes - SIX out of twelve winners retired to stud immediately
Fillies' Mile - SEVEN out of twelve winners retired to stud immediately

This obviously shouldn't be happening, as horses from these races should be returning for a 3yo season at the very least. The fact that so many top 2yo horses are being retired is having a negative effect on the 3yo classics as well. In SO7, horses should really never be retiring to stud after their 2yo season unless it's due to injury.


Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:49 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
Just to follow up on this, I played through the 13th season of the test game, to see which horses were retired to stud, and found that the winners of ALL of the following races were retired to stud at the end of their 2yo year; none of them returned as 3yo:

Group 1:
Dewhurst Stakes
Racing Post Trophy
Middle Park Stakes
Fillies' Mile
Cheveley Park Stakes
Prix Marcel Boussac
Criterium International
Criterium de Saint-Cloud

Group 2/3:
Flying Childers Stakes
May Hill Stakes
Superlative Stakes
Rockfel Stakes
Richmond Stakes
Norfolk Stakes
Princess Margaret Stakes
Solario Stakes
Prestige Stakes
Albany Stakes
Horris Hill Stakes
Sirenia Stakes
Autumn Stakes
Somerville Tattersall Stakes
Molecomb Stakes

This seems to be a very significant issue, as there's no way the winners of all of these races should be retiring as 2yo. And these are just the group winners; lots of group placed horses and listed winners were also retired as 2yo.

None of these horses should be retiring; they should all be returning as 3yo and some of them beyond that.


Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:08 am
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
I reached the end of season 15 on my test game, and decided to do a bit of analysis on the horses that left the game at the end of the season:

2yo
349 sold abroad
22 retired to stud (including the Dewhust, RP Trophy and Filies' Mile winners and many other top Group-winning 2yos)

3yo
37 sold abroad
29 retired to stud

I then had a look at the spread of horses in the pool at the very start of season 16:

2yo: 1841
3yo: 1403

So, I understand that the game is producing more 2yo than it needs and it needs to shed some at the end of each 2yo season. However, a better system might be required to sort the wheat from the chaff, as currently far too many top class 2yo are leaving the game, rather than coming back for a 3yo season. Ideally, no 2yo should be retiring to stud, apart from perhaps very occasionally due to injury or for other unexpected reasons.

Another thing I noticed is that of the 1403 3yo at the start of the new season, only two of them are unraced! This is obviously not very realistic, as there should be quite a few horses entering their 3yo season unraced (including stayers, some middle distance horses and a small number of late developing milers/10f horses). I'd also noticed that many of the 349 2yo horses that left the game by being "sold abroad" at the end of their 2yo season were unraced. Perhaps something could be done to keep some of those unraced horses into their 3yo season and replace them on the "sold abroad" list with some horses that raced, but didn't do very well? In real life, in spring time there are many middle distance 3yo maiden/novice races full of horses that are unraced or maybe ran once or twice towards the end of their 2yo season - it would be good if something like that could be replicated in the game.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
2yo do retire these days, perhaps not as many as on here though.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
ghosty wrote:
2yo do retire these days, perhaps not as many as on here though.


They do, but it's a rarity.

In the game, the winners of 2yo Group 1 races like the Dewhurst, RP Trophy, Fillies' Mile, Middle Park, Cheveley Park are being retired immediately to stud most years, without returning as 3yo for their classic season. It also affects the top Irish and French 2yo races, with the winners of those races also retiring most years. In addition to all of that, many of the 2yo Group 2 and 3 winners and Group 1 placed horses are also retiring.

It's quite a major issue, but I'm sure Mark will be able to fix it.

These days, the current trend is for most top class horses to stay in training until 4yo or even occasionally 5yo, although obviously quite a few still retire after their 3yo season.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:17 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
I wish it was like that in the US but if u a early 2yo or a early 3yo ( kentucky derby horse) then u will retire at 3. I think it's not bad that some retire after 2 because u get to breed to them early and u get them when they are at their best at stud.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
ghosty wrote:
I wish it was like that in the US but if u a early 2yo or a early 3yo ( kentucky derby horse) then u will retire at 3. I think it's not bad that some retire after 2 because u get to breed to them early and u get them when they are at their best at stud.


Yeah, Epsom Derby winners often retire after their 3yo season as well, but a lot of other top class 3yo now stay in training at least in to their 4yo season, which is good for the sport, I think.

I prefer the game to be as realistic as possible, so it kind of spoils it for me having so many top class 2yos retiring, when in real life everything for these horses would be about their 3yo season and potentially beyond that. These horses should all be staying in training, with very few exceptions.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
Mark wrote:
0.114
Trainer retirement ai tweaks..


Not sure if this fix in the latest patch notes relates to the issue in this thread, but having tested the new patch this evening, the issue is still there and is just as bad as it was before. The vast majority of 2yo Group race winners (including the winners of races like the Dewhurst, RP Trophy and other G1 races) are still being retired to stud at the end of their 2yo season.

This is a bit of a realism killer. In real life in the last 20 years (probably more than 20, I didn't check), not a single winner of either the Dewhurst Stakes or the RP Trophy (now Futurity Trophy) has been retired straight to stud. Those are the only two races I checked the real life stats for, but I imagine it's pretty similar for every other 2yo Group race. In SO7, good quality 2yo horses basically shouldn't be retiring to stud at all, unless it's due to injury (I don't mind things like that happening very occasionally). They shouldn't be retiring until at least 3yo, or later in some cases. All previous versions of SO had the realism in this area working pretty well, so I'm hoping there's a way to make it more realistic in SO7.


Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:21 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
In the past 40 years only two winners of any UK/Ire/Fra Group 1 as a two year old have been intentionally retired to stud at their 2yo career. Holy Roman Emperor & The Last Lion.

There's others like Teofilio who never ran at 3yo because of injury.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:27 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
Gunnevera wrote:
In the past 40 years only two winners of any UK/Ire/Fra Group 1 as a two year old have been intentionally retired to stud at their 2yo career. Holy Roman Emperor & The Last Lion.

There's others like Teofilio who never ran at 3yo because of injury.


Exactly this. And Holy Roman Emperor was only retired to stud to replace George Washington, who had fertility problems, otherwise he would’ve run as a 3yo.

In the game, 2yo colts shouldn’t really be getting retired to stud at all.

I see further tweaks have been made in patch 0.115, so I’ll check this out when I get home from work.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:21 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
Dark Angel retired as a 2yo and The wow signal and there's a few others and a few in the US.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:29 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
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Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
It happens. Though perhaps less than the game does.

Another reason to retire is you know the horse was a fast-growing precocious 2yo and while not unsound yet, the risk of an injury that takes it out of stud duty is large. TBs are a live cover required breed.

You usually know from looking at the horse, the phrase I've heard most with those fast growers is that sometimes the maturity is so fast that they "grow themselves apart". You can literally see the angles in the legs change and know that's just not good.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
ghosty wrote:
Dark Angel retired as a 2yo and The wow signal and there's a few others and a few in the US.


Dark Angel was retired because he was an out-and-out sprinter that wasn’t being aimed at any of the 3yo classics, and in those days (10+ years ago) opportunities for 3yo sprinters with a G1 penalty were few and far between. This wouldn’t be as much of an issue these days, as the pattern for 3yo sprinters in Europe is much-improved.

I’m not necessarily saying it should never happen. It should just be extremely rare. It kind of spoils the realism of the game when a top class 2yo that looks well on course for the 3yo classics suddenly retires. At the moment in the game though, this is the norm. In fact, at least 10 to 15 top class 2yos that should be aiming for 3yo classics are being retired every year.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Horses often retiring to stud after 2yo season
I've carried out further testing using the new patch 0.115.

I auto-ran 10 seasons (checked Dewhurst and RP Trophy race histories and found that many winners still retiring at 2yo), then played through a couple of seasons, before checking which 2yo were retired to stud or left the game at the end of 2029...

Retired to stud or sold abroad as 2yo in 2029:
Poltergeist Paddy - G1 WINNER Dewhurst Stakes, G2 WINNER Vintage Stakes
Akrias Warrior - G1 WINNER Racing Post Trophy, G1 RUNNER-UP Criterium de Saint-Cloud, G1 THIRD National Stakes
Chantalouette Trend - G1 WINNER Cheveley Park Stakes
Lauberhorn Tiddly - G1 WINNER Criterium International, G3 WINNER Autumn Stakes, G2 RUNNER-UP Vintage Stakes
Compton Astoria - G1 WINNER Prix Marcel Boussac
Craicneasy Style - G1 WINNER Twilight Stakes
Robby Nations - G2 WINNER Champagne Stakes, G2 WINNER Coventry Stakes
Elizabethan Bridget - G2 WINNER Lowther Stakes, G2 RUNNER-UP Rockfel Stakes
Story Rock - G2 WINNER Queen Mary Stakes, G2 RUNNER-UP Duchess of Cambridge Stakes
Hilbre Taipan- G3 WINNER Solario Stakes, G1 RUNNER-UP Racing Post Trophy, G1 RUNNER-UP National Stakes
Cry Before Dawn - G3 WINNER Firth of Clyde Stakes, G3 RUNNER-UP Sweet Solera Stakes
Mazaya Fair - G3 WINNER Molecomb Stakes
Flamingo Time - G3 WINNER Princess Margaret Stakes
Forlane Betambeau - G1 RUNNER-UP Fillies' Mile
Shalamiyr Vizier (sold abroad) - G2 WINNER July Stakes, G2 RUNNER-UP Champagne Stakes
Pappas Miguel (sold abroad) - G2 WINNER Richmond Stakes, G1 THIRD Middle Park Stakes

Considering people in this thread have come up with only a handful of Group-winning 2yos over the past few decades that have retired straight to stud, this is an enormous number of Group-winning 2yo horses to be leaving the game in one single season! It's pretty much ALL the horses that should've been contesting the 3yo classics in 2030!

Sorry, but this area of the game is still not even anywhere close to being realistic yet. Is there any way to make it so that by default 2yo horses are not retired to stud, with very rare exceptions? This was a lot more realistic in previous versions of the game.


Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:05 pm
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