I'll address the whole rendering engine/new courses question I have never fully explained it.

Moving to 3D around a decade ago was a big and risky move. To be honest I wasn't sure it was the right thing at all. The income brought in by what is a very niche game just about supports me and 2D allows me to spend the majority of my time developing the sim and I can do most of the 2D visuals myself. At that point the finances had been built up to employ a 3D programmer in order to develop the 2D rendering engine that I had used for a while. The programmer was with me for around 3 years or so. During that time he also created the 3D course editor and some other tools. The project was done on an absolute shoe-string. I managed to find artists (in various countries) to create the horses and jockeys and stands very cheaply. Looking back I'm amazed we got it finished before the cash ran out. Recreating all the 3D assets these days would be significantly more costly than back then. Having a new rendering engine created and also the tools required to create the racecourses and get them working in a realistic way is a multi year, multi programmer, multi artist job. To do this to a high standard today would cost an awful lot of money. Right now Starters Orders generates just enough income to keep me going and that is about it. I'm not going to even talk about the increasing legal issues related to creating realistic 3D courses etc.

The fact is I'm a one man band and due to the niche nature of the game Starters Orders should really be 2D only and focus entirely on the sim. This side of development is my strength anyway. A full 3D makeover will require a partnership that suits the series. Maybe this will work out one day but the legal issues and the licences are truly a nightmare for most publishers that I have spoken to in the past.

Around 2019-2021 a lot was going on outside of work for me and Starters Orders took a back seat. I didn't even get to a racecourse during that time and sort of lost interest in racing in general and was pondering a job offer which would have been the end of the series. When I did get the enthusiasm back I decided to go back to the roots of the series and develop the game in 2D and just focus and the simulation again and if it made enough money to pay me to develop the next iteration then all well and good. I knew it would fully piss off a portion of the games base and sales would suffer relative to previous releases but it seemed the only option to keep the series going. So I switched to a new 2D rendering engine and started adding sim features and created a 2D race sequence from scratch. I used some Starters Orders classic visuals but up scaled some for higher resolutions and created some new backgrounds and visuals and also improved some of the race sim code and just tried to get the races a little more realistic. I created brand new GUI code and menus to utilise the new engine. One reason behind the engine switch was Android support but that turned out to be a royal pain in the arse and I still can't confirm it.

So this was also going to also be the PC release. As time went on I kind of missed the 3D race sequence and I also wanted to introduce a jockey career mode (won't work in 2D). So early 2022 I decided that I would reuse the SO7 3D engine. My thinking was that the actual quality of the visuals in a hardcore sim is not so important to most players. The old menu's were a problem though. The series has never really had a proper GUI rewrite and was horrible to use especially for new players so I ripped out all the menus and GUI code and ported all the GUI code and menu frameworks I had created for mobile game back to the PC to utilise the old rendering engine. I then adapted the menus to suit desktop and then continued with game and sim improvements.

So this is where we are at. The focus is really back on sim work but SO8 is 3D on the PC only. We will see how the new PC game goes down and if there is any interest in the new 2D mobile (and Mac) game. I have no idea where SO9 will go or if there will even be one or if it will just return to 2D. If I can make a bells and whistles 3D horse racing game with high end visuals and fully realistic racecourses I will but there are many hurdles and it may not happen and I hope the above has explained it all a little.

Mark

Thank you Mark for this terrific update. I hope you get lots of feedback from players to help you see the way forward.

I need time to digest your post, but my initial reaction is that continual improvement to the sim and GUI is way more important than development of graphic features. Despite having a very decent pc and graphics package I have never been able to watch a race at Aintree, and can't launch the game on Steam without my sound disabled so can't listen to commentary. So the game to me is a sim anyway as I have to keep the features set to minimum. I could give you a sizeable list of GUI improvements that would make SO8 easier and more fun to play. It is currently clumsy and very tiring for me personally given the hours I put into the game.

As for the race engine, I have issues with lack of development races in NH (ie not enough suitable races), and the way you cannot sell horses without them suddenly becoming superstars way beyond belief ! But by and large you have a realistic balance to racing - I am in season 37 (after nearly four years of playing this game), win loads of big races, but still have four or five losers for every winner. Which feels to me just how it should be. Breeding is totally random and frustrating (I breed in high numbers then discard based on racetrack performance and signs of improvement). So again, just how it should be.

I would hate a scenario where we had to use fictitious courses or jockeys, but frankly I am surprised you have been able to do this in the modern world of image rights. If this is an issue going forward, is it an option for you to have a game where the player can name courses, races, and jockeys manually (in the way we currently re-name horses) ? Long winded for the player I know, but the ultimate in absorption nonetheless.

If you are saying that future versions of the SO series are likely to be solid rather than jazzy, that gets my vote. I guess few will agree with me, but the bottom line is that you are a one man band which will always limit progress, and the prospect of you having to shell out for image rights will kill it anyway.

Thank you for all the time you have put into SO. Like you I would miss 3D if it went entirely, but an improved 2D would soon make up for it.

I don't want this thread to sound too negative regarding the prospects of a high quality 3D visual race experience to match modern games at some point. It can't happen at the moment and it may never make sense but I do have plans to speak to third parties again after SO8 is out of the way. It is likely however that any such game would require a reduced game world (courses, jockeys and trainers) due to licences where the more abstract nature of a 2D race sequence would mean this is much less likely to be a problem.

Regarding the jockeys and trainers in SO8. The new games include an easy to use editor that makes it straight forward to replace names and portraits without resorting to editing files. This also applies to the mobile game.

hello Mark, personally, the 2D race sequence of SO5-SO6-SO7 seemed inferior to SO4 with the alternative graphics that you implemented in those editions, logically we all want improvements in 3D and we know that it is impossible, but to go back to 2D there are games in which both horse, jockey and animations seemed more real to me than those that were released in previous editions, adding the same options to edit silks and animations in horses and jockey keys in the race with 2D graphics I would settle. This is just a personal opinion, but there is still someone who thinks the same, greetings.

Really appreciate the honest update Mark. Has the schedule had a very much needed update? That is the one major gripe that I've had for the past few editions. Thanks again

I updated the UK and a few other schedules. Mainly removing races that no longer exist and adding new ones. The exception is the US races and courses etc., which due to legal issues need to remain pretty unrealistic. It could be you are not talking about schedules though but trainer race entry AI and horse campaign planning as people often get the two mixed up. This are has also been improved. I'm not sure of the results yet. Also trainers have always developed blind spots with certain horses in terms of race entry resulting in a pool of horses not being raced which impacts the other areas I just mentioned. This has been much improved. Again I'm not sure how it all plays out yet.

If legal issues prevent realistic US races and courses, will the START IT Mod remain compatible with the new version?

Third party mod's are entirely the creators resposibility and are not part of any official distribution. Mod's should work maybe with a few tweaks. There is a new flag used for graded novice and juvenile hurdles: <GRADED>. Also Premiere Handicaps are now used (for jumps) so PREM_HCP should be used. So changes to the feature race files should to be made.

Also from the worklog (https://www.startersorders.com/so8.html):
Listed Handicaps gone. Premiere handicaps introduced. G3 Jumps handicaps also now Premiere Handicaps (as BHA rule changes).

i would take stick drawings for it to work on mac

Great update Mark and always appreciated

As a relative newbee to the SO series, 6 was my first one, I have to say the race engine and actually riding the horses yourself was a real positive to the game. Yes, it's a fine simulator and management game in it's own right and this is the bulk of the activity but riding in the National, Cheltenham Festival (I tended to do jumps only) really added a bit of extra spark to the game for me personally

Therefore any improvements to the 3D engine would be welcomed but I echo the comments it's not a necessity, far from it

For me and apologies for repeating myself here, the schedule and the chance to send your horses overseas for G1 races is where some focus should be added. As a trainer there's nothing better to train and develop your own horse that in years I can send to overseas Jumps and flat races for big money, competing against other horses from around the world on foreign tracks, this is the pinnacle of training for me, if more of this can be implemented in SO8 then we're wining from the off

It's a great game Mark and the effort is greatly appreciated, I'll be purchasing as soon as I can

Cheers

Mark

Not sure if the Grand Pardubice Steeplechase exists in any of the mods. Would love to see it as part of the main game. Would be awesome to try to breed then develop a horse capable and brave enough to compete in that one.

Any thought given to revising the weight system? The imposts appear severe for horses who win a graded stake(s) early in their career and then are penalized long into the future despite falling off and never getting close to that form again. A 13 year old AI gelding, three years removed from his last placing in a graded stake, carried 147 lbs in a C2 handicap despite only winning a C4 $7500 handicap within the past year. That was 21 lbs more than the eventual winner, who was rated 9 points higher after three victories and two placings in C2's with $50K+ purses in the previous three months.

Horse ratings should drop off quite rapidly as they age/deteriorate if they continue to race. The exception from what I can see is highly rated horses that run very infrequently or not at all. Changes have been made to drop these horses. This should result in the returning to racing at a lower level rather than just getting stuck.

i have seen S08 log book please please add that my horse will be able to breed to legends, it will make the game for my eyes so much more realistic, there's not point having legends if you can breed or have them in your farm

I am meaning the schedule Mark. Once you get a large ish stable you start to run out of races to race your horses in. There are not enough low end handicaps and maidens, especially for 3 year olds. The pattern races appear to run OK, it's the filler races that are the problem with a very large shortfall in races for the run of the mill horses. Also, on the jumps side there is a major shortage of handicaps, especially over hurdles for your horses, also for chasers, but mainly hurdlers. I don't know if more days are needed added to the calendar, or more meetings per day, but something needs tweaking to offer more opportunities for your horses once your stable is over 100.

Will the stable sizes foe AI trainers be looked at so you get varying sizes as in 'real' racing?