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zikkofly
Selling plater
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:59 pm Posts: 11
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Camelot only 123
Just saw camelot got a provisional rating of 123. Thought that was a little suprising? I know it wasnt a great renewel of the Nemwarket classic but surely he deserves a higher rating than that. Aidan O' Brien plugging up every horse he has doesnt help although I do feel he's been a bit quiter about Camelot compared to to other horses. Anyway it wasnt the best guineas ever but the second horse french fifteen won the criterium last year with a bit in hand so hes beaten a group 1 winner and is the first horse in 40years to complete the RP Trophy and Guineas double so he's two timer group 1 winner already and thats only his third run. Timeform pisses me off sometimes anyway. Dont understand how they rate Frankel higher than Sea the Stars. But thats just my own opinion
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Sat May 05, 2012 6:12 pm |
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HurricaneRun
Group 1 winner
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:12 pm Posts: 2133 Location: Newcastle England
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Re: Camelot only 123
they lost all respect for their rating when they rated harbinger as highly as they did off the back of one race
_________________ HURRICANE FLY!!!!!!!GREATEST OF ALL TIME
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Sat May 05, 2012 9:30 pm |
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nick_driver
Group 1 winner
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 2:07 pm Posts: 1187 Location: Redhill
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Re: Camelot only 123
HurricaneRun wrote: they lost all respect for their rating when they rated harbinger as highly as they did off the back of one race Completely agree with this
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Sat May 05, 2012 10:13 pm |
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GS63
Group 1 winner
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:50 am Posts: 1903 Location: Torbay, England
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Re: Camelot only 123
Good call Zikkofly, Frankel Vs Sea The Stars - in their prime, no contest.
_________________ Shergar - unstoppable and always the best.
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:01 am |
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Ubar02
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am Posts: 2119
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Re: Camelot only 123
It's becaus he didn't win by far that he is only 123. Also, it wasn't exactly the best renewal ever. They weren't going to give him a huge rating off the back of a 1/2 length win in the guineas. And why is frankel rated higher than sea the stars? Could you really honestly see sea the tars being able to lay up with frankel for a mile? He was good, but not that good. And also harbinger, he may har ony won one group 1 but e had already won the hard woke impressively and winning the king georg by 10+ lengths beating two derby winners and the future Irish champion and Arlington million winner and the future arc winnerin the manner he did was no fluke. I think he was deserving of that rating. If you don't believe me watch the race again. Peslier could have won the race on him at a canter, but he just nudged him and away he went. I believe he didn't have to use the whip on him either.
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Sun May 06, 2012 12:55 pm |
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pjrhodes1970
Group 1 winner
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm Posts: 15155 Location: Republic of Ireland
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Re: Camelot only 123
Harbingers rating was a pure joke Cameot will be in 130's after derby and 146 after st leger
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:02 pm |
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Ubar02
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am Posts: 2119
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Re: Camelot only 123
I think the next horse to get 145 or higher will be frankel. And on that day, I believe nothing would have beaten Harbinger.
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:20 pm |
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anubisrich
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:53 pm Posts: 2325
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Re: Camelot only 123
Harbingers rating was too high because it was a small field but it was still a cracking performance.
123 is a fair rating at this stage in the season when just getting home racing untested 3 year olds.
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:33 pm |
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HurricaneRun
Group 1 winner
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:12 pm Posts: 2133 Location: Newcastle England
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Re: Camelot only 123
far too high it was not a great field if you take into consideration the fact that workforce ran way below par.
Sea The Stars would have walked all over Harbinger, who must go down as the most ridiculously high rated horse since ratings were given.
As for the comment about STS not being able to live with Frankel over a mile, it appears you always seem to use the mile i.e. saying Black Caviar would get killed off Frankel over a mile. You cannot do this to argue that he is a better horse, as I can comfortably say that STS would kill Frankel over 1m4f and Black Caviar would kill him over 5 and 6F.
Out of Frankel and Sea The Stars, the best performance I have seen so far is STS in the ARC - trapped against the rail with seemingly nowhere to go, miles behind the leader, commentator states that he will need to be a 'champion to win from there' and BOOM! Kinane gets him some daylight and he takes off - the horse was electric and you cannot say Frankel is better than him
_________________ HURRICANE FLY!!!!!!!GREATEST OF ALL TIME
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:45 pm |
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pjrhodes1970
Group 1 winner
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 pm Posts: 15155 Location: Republic of Ireland
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Re: Camelot only 123
anubisrich wrote: Harbingers rating was too high because it was a small field but it was still a cracking performance.
123 is a fair rating at this stage in the season when just getting home racing untested 3 year olds. i agree
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:45 pm |
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anubisrich
Group 1 winner
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:53 pm Posts: 2325
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Re: Camelot only 123
Sea The Stars wasn't flashy though, he won his 6 races at 3 by a cumulative 10L. Frankel won his 5 by a cumulative 20L (over a shorter distance so theoretically should win by less of a margin).
If you equate ratings to lengths then you have to rate Frankel higher. If ratings were based on someone's opinion of how much was left in the tank then they would be pointless.
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Sun May 06, 2012 2:29 pm |
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keithbeaky
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:47 pm Posts: 2407 Location: UK
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Re: Camelot only 123
HurricaneRun wrote: far too high it was not a great field if you take into consideration the fact that workforce ran way below par.
Sea The Stars would have walked all over Harbinger, who must go down as the most ridiculously high rated horse since ratings were given.
As for the comment about STS not being able to live with Frankel over a mile, it appears you always seem to use the mile i.e. saying Black Caviar would get killed off Frankel over a mile. You cannot do this to argue that he is a better horse, as I can comfortably say that STS would kill Frankel over 1m4f and Black Caviar would kill him over 5 and 6F.
Out of Frankel and Sea The Stars, the best performance I have seen so far is STS in the ARC - trapped against the rail with seemingly nowhere to go, miles behind the leader, commentator states that he will need to be a 'champion to win from there' and BOOM! Kinane gets him some daylight and he takes off - the horse was electric and you cannot say Frankel is better than him But he is. Harbinger put up the best older horse performance in a long, long time. Rating horses is far more complex than most see it. A horse can win 5 G1's but might be inferior to a horse who didn't win one, depending on what generation they raced against. Youmzain was on the decline in the King George but he could've been beaten 20L. something which never happened to him before that race. Though it did happen in Workforce's Arc, albeit on soft. Sea The Stars was a great horse, no doubt. But doubters could argue, who did he beat? Youmzain has already been beaten in Arcs, Conduit was an average winner of a VERY poor King George and Cavalryman?? Also the commentary as I remember it was, as usual, awful. He had 5 or 6 to make up on horses who were slowing to a walk didn't he? BUT he did quicken oh so well 3-2f out, after not having the ideal position or passage, and won in an impressive manner suggesting he was a lot better than the winning distance and his rivals. Youmzain and Conduit finishing so well did not do anything for the form imo, nor did Gosden's filly finishing so close. But as said he was much better than them. Frankel has destroyed fields and beat a previous champion with so much ease. Ok the St James' wasn't a great victory but overall his performances are far better. Thats not actually my opinion but just an argument against. Though I did rate Harbinger's King George win highly
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Sun May 06, 2012 3:27 pm |
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Ubar02
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am Posts: 2119
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Re: Camelot only 123
anubisrich wrote: Sea The Stars wasn't flashy though, he won his 6 races at 3 by a cumulative 10L. Frankel won his 5 by a cumulative 20L (over a shorter distance so theoretically should win by less of a margin).
If you equate ratings to lengths then you have to rate Frankel higher. If ratings were based on someone's opinion of how much was left in the tank then they would be pointless. Yes big bucks would be rated about 300 for most of his races! I am not saying sea the stars wasn't a great horse, he beat everything(at 3) that was put in front of him. It's just that Frankel demolished everything that was put in front of him.
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Sun May 06, 2012 6:31 pm |
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quelesprit
Selling plater
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:45 pm Posts: 85 Location: Tipperary
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Re: Camelot only 123
Do people not understand that ratings are given for that race as a stand alone, Harbinger gave a unbelievable performance ON THE DAY and so he deserved the rating he got, although he was not as good a horse as STS he gave one run that was better than any one of STS so its obvious he should be rated higher
_________________ Desperado why dont you come to your senses?
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:37 pm |
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Ubar02
Group 1 winner
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am Posts: 2119
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Re: Camelot only 123
quelesprit wrote: Do people not understand that ratings are given for that race as a stand alone, Harbinger gave a unbelievable performance ON THE DAY and so he deserved the rating he got, although he was not as good a horse as STS he gave one run that was better than any one of STS so its obvious he should be rated higher I think it was a perfectly reasonable rating, he originally got 142 but after he didn't run again they cut it to140
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:18 am |
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